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August 20th Open Ice

Friday! Friday! Happy hour is on the clock!

Need a random fact? August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays & 5 Tuesdays which won't happen again for 823 years! Thank you internets.

Canucks query for the day: how many games do you want to see Cory Schneider start this season (or, alternatively, how many games should Luongo take off? He's averaged 65 games the past three seasons).

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I’d like to see Schneider start at least 20 games this season.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Aug 20, 2010 9:00 AM PDT reply actions  

I think
26 games Schneids
56 games Lu

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 9:07 AM PDT reply actions  

Of course, depending on how Schneids performs. If he does like he did last year, then absolutely!

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not 27 and 55?

Contributor to Nucks Misconduct
Also, check out my blog 'Nucks and Pucks or follow me on Twitter

by nucksandpucks on Aug 20, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

What an awful idea! Where do you come up with this crap?

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was thinking 28 and 54. Stop stealing my idea.

Nucks Misconduct
"Here goes nothin'" - Han Solo

by Sean Zandberg on Aug 20, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pfft, you guys have it all wrong. 26 for Schneids, 54 for Lou, and 2 for Levesque.

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's luongo

so 76 for luongo and 6 hard fought for, blood in the dressing room for Schneids. For about 17 of those games Luongo and AV won’t speak to each other for days cuz of the arguments…

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

AHL on CBC

That is sick! Sunday afternoon hockey? Yes please!

Also, I hope that this is finally the year I make it to a Marlies game when the Moose are in Toronto. If this happens expect photos of the 10 drunk fans in attendance and updates on Nucks prospects…

Contributor to Nucks Misconduct
Also, check out my blog 'Nucks and Pucks or follow me on Twitter

by nucksandpucks on Aug 20, 2010 9:53 AM PDT reply actions  

When a blogger cuts Brian Burke down a peg, you run (not walk) to read it.

Thanks for sharing this link – awesome post.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 10:09 AM PDT reply actions  

that is quite a rant. I just don’t agree with the NHL players participating in the Olympics part…a bit from the owners’ perspective but more from my own selfish desires. A Canuck goes down for 3 months during an Olympic injury and hurts our Cup chances I’m not down with that.

Nucks Misconduct
"Here goes nothin'" - Han Solo

by Sean Zandberg on Aug 20, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Then they'd better

Get this World Cup of Hockey thing set up. While I hate to see teams get screwed because of injuries during the Olympics (Ottawa with Hasek in 06), the Olympics are still some of the most amazing hockey to watch, and you don’t get to see the absolute best in the world play together, and actually play to win (unlike the allstar game), very often.

If the NHL doesn’t go to Sochi, I can understand the reasons, but I still won’t like it

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can understand that … and I was extremely nervous myself with the Sharks players out there, but they could just as easily get hurt in the NHL and hurt your Cup chances as well. You have to trust that your team is more than one player and can adjust if something does happen.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anyone else tried the NHL 11 demo yet?

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 10:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Yup, played it a little. The Ultimate team thing seems quite cool. The passing is quite different, need a few more games to get used to it

by andrew21nz on Aug 20, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

It is, in a word, awesome.

The passing just feels more pressure based. Hold it down longer and further for a harder pass, and the pass happens when you let go of the button instead of when you press it.

The stick handling, checking and hitting all feel far more fluid. Goalies still seem dumb. And I’m sure there are a lot of exploits that people will find. But so far so good.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinhathaway/ - Here B Photos

by ShiftySC on Aug 20, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well if people are finding exploits

they will find out about it and fix them with updates like they always do.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

If this was sarcastic, LOL.

Otherwise I’m not sure you played NHL10, which has numerous exploits and bugs even today. I still like it though.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinhathaway/ - Here B Photos

by ShiftySC on Aug 20, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry I thought the sarcasm was obvious enough

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I pulled a missy then, my bad. Sometimes the most misinformed stuff is easiest to believe is real on the tubes.

Just had a marathon 4 OT game and beat the Hawks on a breakaway backhand to win the cup. The stickhandling and hit detection between players and sticks is way, way better. And the physics for hitting is actually a lot better than I thought it would be. Huge improvement on NHL10 hits.

I’ve won 3 out of 4 games against the hawks, so it’s a Game of the Year contender even as a demo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinhathaway/ - Here B Photos

by ShiftySC on Aug 20, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tuesdays which won't happen again for 823 years!

Luongo’s contract is over 8 centuries – it will be de-registered for sure!

Lu’s deal expires 2021-2022 – the next occurrence of this is 2021 (11 years). It follows a 6,5,6,11 year pattern due to leap years and not 823 years as the myth contends.

"Last season we couldn't win at home and we were losing on the road. My failure was that I couldn't think of any place else to play." - Harry Neale

by Diehardnuck on Aug 20, 2010 10:49 AM PDT reply actions  

lol

Sorry – it’s an old myth that a lot of people believe so you shouldn’t feel bad.

"Last season we couldn't win at home and we were losing on the road. My failure was that I couldn't think of any place else to play." - Harry Neale

by Diehardnuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

If that post about Washington looking at Bieksa or Souray is true...

then does that mean they’ve passed on Mitchell and they’re out of the running? I can’t see them picking up both Willie and one of those two, but stranger things have happened (see: Jokinen returning to Calgary). Besides, how much less banged up is Souray than Mitchell?

The rumor was that Lombardi had a 2yr. deal on the table for Willie, was there a mention of price? Any ideas on what Wilson or Gillis might/could offer?

Gripping the Stick Too Tight - Pointless rants about the game we love. Because its our game too.

by Nuuuuugs on Aug 20, 2010 10:53 AM PDT reply actions  

Then again maybe Washington still lusts for him.

Gripping the Stick Too Tight - Pointless rants about the game we love. Because its our game too.

by Nuuuuugs on Aug 20, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Quick question

for the hockey newbie. Why is it so difficult for a goalie to play 82 games a year?

by British Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:07 AM PDT reply actions  

Goalies are an island on to themselves, that’s why they get treated a bit differently. If Kesler has a bad game, he’s got 11 other guys up front to help him. If Luongo has a bad game, he flat out gets pulled.

It’s tough for any player to play 82 games, especially considering back to backs. Factor in other things like travel fatigue, a tweaked muscle or the common cold and there’s no reason to run your thoroughbred into the ground if you don’t have to.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also, goalies don’t get to take a break every 90 seconds or so.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Aug 20, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Playing goalie is very taxing. Heavy equipment and requires extreme flexibility to be put into use. Also it’s very psychologically demanding as you are always on and face a heavy burden should you have a bad game. In the early days, goalies did play every or nearly game. That changed as the league became a much more professional organization. It was rare that a #1 goalie would play more than 2/3s of games in the 70s/80s/90s. Players like Brodeur and Kiprusoff came around and the scale turned back again, and many goalies started playing upwards of 85% to 90% of games. Some people argue this is to the detriment of performance and health, though that’s entirely debatable.

Also it’s important to keep your backup goalie in shape and ready to go should any injury befall your number one and he no longer be available. You wouldn’t want a guy who has played two games all season leading you into the playoffs (unless you’re the Philadelphia Flyers though…)

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Playing goalie is very taxing.

Especially when you play behind SOB.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Playing goalie is very taxing.

Especially when you live BC and make 10 million dollars.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Higher taxes in NY my friend! And it doesn’t come with healthcare.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

…not yet… ;)

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

In BC, someone earning $10,000,000 pays 43% tax
In NY City, someone earning $10,000,000 pays 47.5% tax

This doesn’t include SIN in Canada or social security in the US.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK

Now compare the taxes at non goalie/lawyer incomes…

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh my taxes are lower in NY than they would be in BC. It’s only once you start earning $200,000 that taxes get higher in in NY. Below that they’re higher in BC.

Again, though, I have to pay a lot of health care on top.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I’m in a very high tax bracket but I get drugs and medical for free. Which is good what with the heart dealio and all.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

And you two don’t have to pay escrow!

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

but I also don’t work 60 minutes every second day.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

They don’t pay taxes on the money they put in escrow!

And yeah, I’m healthy, so even my taxes and medical combined is lower here than it would be in BC. But if I wasn’t healthy, it would be the other way around.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Way to ruin the joke

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know that it's difficult to play the 82 games

It’s not that it’s difficult to play all the games any goalie in the league could play all 82. It’s more that it’s difficult/impossible for a goalie to play 82 games well, and unlike a player when a goalie plays poorly for a stretch it is glaringly obvious. The difference between a goalie playing well at that level and a goalie playing poorly is razor thin and fatigue is a major factor in deciding which side of the line they fall so teams need to give goalies scheduled breaks to insure they don’t get physically but more importantly mentally fatigued.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oops.

I didn’t see that other people had responded and pretty much covered it

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s very difficult to play that many games at an NHL level. No matter how well you are conditioned, a game like this in a position like that takes a massive toll on your body.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinhathaway/ - Here B Photos

by ShiftySC on Aug 20, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Plagiarism?

I saw that ppp/sun media thing. Does anyone else think that calling it plagiarism might be a bit strong considering it was a translated article. Maybe the Czech guy who did the original interview would have a right to be pissed, but the Sun credits him. As it stands I feel like it’s a non-issue.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 11:31 AM PDT reply actions  

I think the fact was that

someone at PPP translated the Czech into english, and the Sun lifted the translation without saying where it got it from. The TSN.ca article that also talks about it references the Sun article, so the Sun could have at least mentioned that they got the translation from PPP.

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

If I followed it correctly, a writer at PPP got the translation. The Sun didn’t attribute where they got the translation from which is pretty much a 101 in my book. The fact that TSN is now crediting The Sun makes it even worse. It would have taken the Sun writer ten seconds to credit PPP or, better still, link to them.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

How do we know they didn't

get it translated themselves? If both translators knew what they were doing wouldn’t it come out the same?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

But

The guys at PPP cleaned up their translation, and the Sun article was pretty much word for word the same as the “cleaned up” PPP article

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

this ^

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

That I can agree with

A mention of where the translation came from would be nice. Not entirely necessary but courteous. My point was only that some of the folks over there at PPP had gotten their backs up about plagiarism, which is a lot strong.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here you go: http://tinyurl.com/23uf5fw

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

No

Translations, especially of the conversational idiom of the language, frequently end up different.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Aug 20, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

But Blogs are obviously not the same caliber as newspapers, therefore deserve no reference

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

The lack of reference probably has more to do with those old school news guys seeing blogs as the enemy

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

There’s two separate issues here… there’s plagiarism, which is an ethical concern in the field of journalism, and then there’s copyright, which is a legal concern.

This is definitely plagiarism. They used someone else’s work without giving them credit. No question about it.

Is this a copyright violation? Don’t know Canadian law or Czech law on this, but under US law it definitely is. However, what PPP did in translation was also a copyright violation. A translation of a work is considered a ‘derivative’ work, and the owner of rights to an original work holds all rights to all derivative works. However, both of these violations almost for sure would be excusable under US law due to a branch of the ‘fair use’ doctrine — press is generally allowed to provide excerpts of copyrighted materials (that they obtain legally) if for the purposes of criticism, review, analysis or inherent newsworthiness. It’s not exactly a well-delineated rule, but I’m confident they have no legal claim here.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 11:57 AM PDT reply actions  

PPP sourced the Czech site though in their article, and the original article is freely available online. I don’t know the intricacies of copyright law, but what PPP did originally seems okay to me.

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn’t matter if it’s freely available online. If they wrote it, they hold the rights to all copies of it anywhere, unless they have expressly waived those rights. You think you can just copy and paste an article from the Province onto your website and then make money off ads on your website so long as you say that you got in from the Province?

I actually didn’t realize that PPP had just translated the whole thing and published it on their blog, rather than just excerpts. In which case, under US law they are without question violating copyright. I doubt that the Czech paper will give a damn. But actually (again only from a US law analysis which does not hold here) the Toronto Sun has “merely” violated journalistic ethics; PPP has violated copyright

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry

these guys are just being pissy now. I agree with the editor of the Sun:

RT @felixpotvin: An editor from the Sun just replied to one of our emails to quote “get over it”.

I was all behind the PPP guys on this, and usually quite enjoy them, but all they’re doing now is milking this for traffic. And THAT is just as shameful as copying their previously copied material.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder if PPP understands the power they wield when they ask their readers to “help” out.

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Watching some of @mlse’s comments on twitter right now is just making me mad. The guy is coming off like a whinging pissy little tantrum throwing bitch. Not saying he is one, just that he sounds like one. Stop being petty. Take action or don’t, but flying sophomoric insults in twitter gains u zero respect and support in the matter.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Regardless if they milk it for traffic or not, that’s hardly a wonderful reply from a ‘professional’ when the charge of plagiarism is involved. Imagine if the situation was reversed? And isn’t this exactly one of the many reasons the MSM pisses on bloggers: credibility?

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again, all we’re talking about here is failing to acknowledge who did the translating of someone else’s article. Since all PPP did was repost the article in its entirety, albeit in a different language, but not add any new content, I think they’re being dicks for pointing out what the Sun did that was wrong (which it was) when they did something wrong in the first place. I’m sure they make a moderate amount of coin running their site, so they have no sympathy from me.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

If someone translated the article, then the PPP guys cleaned up that version of the translation they got and then posted it only for a newspaper to take it verbatim without a source that is a problem. I’m not saying run around and hire lawyers, but it’s a problem.

If you posted a fanpost that Gallagher lifted word for word and the Province brass responded with “get over it”, that would infuriate me (and presumably you). I know that SBN drills down on us to credit sources whenever possible (which we do, even if it’s a laughable CDC one). It’s only fair…why it’s not a two way street is the issue I side with them on.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think that’s a poor analogy because there’s a difference between stealing someone else’s translation for an interview they didn’t even do and stealing their insights.

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

True, I could have phrased that better. But is that not what the Sun did?

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

The sun acknowledged the orignial, non-violating, rightsholding, source. PPP posted an entire article without permission. There translation is useful, but they did not have the right to do so. As I said, PPP commited a foul, and so did the Sun, which is why when PPP is busy being all high-and-mighty I couldn’t care less.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't even see where there is proof of plagarism

I mean if you take a text and have two different translators translate it to English I am sure they will be very similar. I looked at that link the Yankee posted and I am less than convinced. If I had tried to clean up that Goolge translate version I am not sure I would have done too much differently than either the Sun guy or the PPP guy did. If it was entirely word for word it would be different but when it comes to translating a quote the similarity between the two isn’t convincing of plagiarism. I mean I am sure an organization as big as Sun Media has access to a translator so why go to a blog to do get the info? It doesn’t add up to me.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Personally I thought it was fairly obvious. But if you are unconvinced, in some of the responses to the post on PPP, it seems the Sun has basically acknowledged it but basically says they only need to acknowledge the original, rights-holding source.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh really?

Well that’s maybe a different story then. Although I am not sure how it works when referencing an interview in a foreign language and a translated version. Maybe they don’t have to acknowledge the translated version? I wish I knew more but I didn’t go to journalism school I went to broadcasting school.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I don’t know the journalism ethics rules at all. Just the legal ones. And like I said, from my analysis, it doesn’t seem like Sun Media violated anyones content rights, but PPP did.

Again, to add as always, this is assuming similar law as to what the law is in the United States.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn’t the Sun have violated the same content rights by stating they translated it themselves? It’s the equivalent of PPP doing the same thing.

Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank

by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, because there is an exception that allows newsmedia to publish excerpts if they attribute the source.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

PPP credited/attributed the source. PPP did the translation.
TS credited/attributed the source. TS says it did the translation.

Difference?

Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank

by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

PPP published the whole thing verbatim. That’s not allowed.

Sun published excerpts throughout the course of a larger article with their own content. That is allowed.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Sun published the same things that PPP did. There really is no difference.

Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank

by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, they did not. The Sun wove their own description around the translated text. PPP simply posted the entire thing translated.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

PPP: republished the entire article, but in translated form. That is not allowed.

Sun: published excerpts of the article within the context of the rest of the story.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is the PPP story. It is literally just a republication of the entire Czech article translated into English.

This is the Sun story. It merely has excerpts from the Czech article, albeit using the translation provided by PPP. But again, it only uses excerpts and then weaves its own words around those excerpts, and it acknowledges the Czech article as the source. So it has complied with the law.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’ll admit a lack of legal knowledge. However, I can tell you that the Sun violated multiple ethical codes. The Canons of Journalism and various Canadian journalistic ethic guidelines were ignored when reporting on this article, by the Sun.

Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank

by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

And I agree what they did was wrong. My point all along is that PPP doesn’t exactly have clean hands here either, so them jumping up and pointing fingers I find to be trite.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Under ethical guidelines, PPP was well within its right. Within outdated journalism international conventions, they were wrong. Meh.

Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank

by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

My concern all along was the triteness with which they were jumping up and down screaming about how they were wronged while all along assuming they just had a right to do what they did. I agree they were wronged, but I’m unimpressed with their actions in the big pictures.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 22, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here’s the chain of events as I see it:

1. Original Czech source publishes story online
2. PPP translates story, puts in its entirety on its own website without adding anything (but does acknowledge source)… gets to keep all revenue associate with this posting (granted likely to be minimal). NEVER HAD ANY LEGAL RIGHT TO DO THIS.
3. Toronto Sun plagiarizes the TRANSLATION from PPP, but acknowledges the source of the article—the one that actually has original content rights.

What the Sun did is unethical, but I suppose they could make the argument that since what PPP did was ILLEGAL, they didn’t deserve any acknowledgment. If PPP wasn’t being so dickish over their supposed rights, I would call the situation a wash. But since they are dickish, I said with the Sun on this one. Sorry Yankee. If you want to be taken “seriously” in the game, you have to play by the rules of the game. There’s no way anyone in MSM gets away with translating an article verbatim from another source without getting the right to do so from that source.

This episode, if anything, only furthers the difference between what makes MSM ‘professional’ and bloggers not.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

What the Sun did is in gross violation of journalistic ethics and it’s completely unprofessional.

I think you’re right about the legality of posting the translated work, but it’s certainly not “professional” for Fuller to flat-out lie and claim he did his own translating work.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Aug 20, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

There’s no way anyone in MSM gets away with translating an article verbatim from another source without getting the right to do so from that source.

This is from the email that James Wallace, editor of the Toronto Sun, sent to one of the PPP members

Fuller credited the source magazine (Czech hockey magazine Hokej) for the quotes used in our article. While he read the translated article first on the pensionplanpuppets website, he checked the original article and quotes thorough Google Translate.

James Wallace himself is admitting that his writer is guilty of the same “alleged” copyright violation that PPP is guilty of.

You were saying something about MSM being “professional”

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Aug 20, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

They published excerpts. That’s legit and normal.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Uncredited excerpts. Biiiiiig difference.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

it is credited to the source rightsholder. And excerpts are allowed. Sorry you don’t like the law, but your attempts to make it up don’t hold water my friend.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was never talking about a legal matter. I only brought up copyright law as a matter of establishing a convention, i.e. what can be copied, unattributed, without it constituting plagiarism. It’s a question of journalistic ethics, not the law. If PPP wanted to sue, good luck to them, but I doubt it holds up in court, to say the least. As a matter of convention and ethics, though, it’s a much different question IMO.

Obviously, if Hokej.cz got all shirty about it and wanted the translation taken down, they have that legal right, but that very seldom tends to happen.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Of course you say this now that you’ve looked the fool in attacking me with complete crap legal arguments. Sure you never were talking about a legal matter.

Classic asshat move.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

So what the Sun are saying

is their guy got the idea to write the article from reading the translated story on PPP. He then translated the article and pulled out quotes he wanted to use and cleaned them up and sourced the original work. Which is what you are supposed to do. If you come across something being used without permission you should go find the original and source that. So that is what the Sun is saying happened. I think he read the PPP article but then when he wrote his story he pulled the quotes directly from PPP and checked the quotes through google translate. So the question is did he translate the whole article himself and then clean up the quotes himself? Cause if he did that and they came out similar to the cleaned up version on PPP then it isn’t technically plagiarism. But if he lifted the quotes directly from PPP and then double checked them on google translate that is plagiarism. If the PPP translated version was indeed translated and posted without permission then the Sun writer would be correct to go to the original and source that as long as he did the translating himself. Seems to me there is a bit of a gray area here. I mean I have a feeling he probably lifted the quotes directly from PPP and double checked them without referencing PPP properly. But it would be hard to prove that. He could just say he translated it himself and any similarities to the cleaned up quotes on PPP were unintentional.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry section

but you guys all up in arms about this and supporting PPP blindly with only info presented by PPP themselves remind me more and more of college liberal arts students…it’s like you’re grabbing this as a pet cause cuz it’s the ‘little guy against the man’. (Annd once yer finished college with your bachelor you’ll settle into a nice long career in retail) But it really isn’t. PPP got wronged. Instead of taking a proper course of action they decided to act like 5 year olds and be bitches….thereby becoming the VERY thing the MSM allegedly pisses on bloggers for, and bloggers get all irate and incensed about. And they just don’t see the irony of it all! Which I guess, is the best u can expect from a leafs fan.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

What?

I am not talking about what PPP has done since this all started. I don’t care. Haven’t been paying attention. I am talking about the legalities of it all and the interesting gray area that exists here. I probably side more with PPP than Sun Media about whether or not Sun media plagiarized but that’s about it.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lol sorry…note to self: read the whole post. /walks away looking innocent

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, instead, PPP should have simply sat down and shut up as the Sun trampled on their work? Right. Good plan. Because the world changes when people get passive aggressive.

Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Aug 20, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trampled on their

plagiarized work I think you meant.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

That too.

Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Aug 20, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not at all

PPP most definitely should not have sat down and shup about this…but they certainly could have acted professionally and somewhat more mature quite easily. Post something on the blog, ask your readers to support you by writing a nice letter. That’s all good reaction. Going on Twitter and writing 40 posts about what douchebags the sun is and how poor their writer is is just being a jackass, and one under 15 years old at that.

MLSE threw a full on temper tantrum over this, and if I was anyone connected with SBN i’d be upset about the Sun’s actions and absolutely embarrassed by PPP’s actions. There is presenting, publicizing, and arguing your point, and then there’s being an obnoxious jackass whingey little crybaby about it.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 21, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’re making me laugh. You really have no clue do you?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 22, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, no clue at all. I don’t read english, and i’m sure you were ‘just joking’, but I didn’t get it cuz I have no sense of humor.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 22, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

You might want to read up on the Berne Convention, the basis of modern copyright law, as it pertains to translations. You may be shocked to learn that you’re completely fucking wrong.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow

it’s hard to believe Leaf fans get a reputation for being foul mouthed idiots. I for one have no idea where that reputation comes from.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

SNN Sports – A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

Uh… that guys no more of a Leaf fan than you are.

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Aug 20, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

ummm I think Doogie is an Oilers fan … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

OHHH that explains it then

Oilers fans ARE foul mouthed idiots.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

You stay classy pal

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Aug 20, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

You guys sure have a great sense of humour

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

fancy meeting you here … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey Ang!

Um, I really only came over here to rec something Yankee said…;)

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure where the idiot comes from … considering he’s correcting a misconception of another … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

It comes from living very close to

Edmonton. ;-)

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

he was wrong! he was wrong all along and is asshatting around with asshattery!

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know back in 1992

I tried to get my friends to start using ‘Asshat’ as an insult and they thought it was stupid. I am pretty sure that means my friends robbed me of being the one who invented ‘Asshat’.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope, he was miscorrecting a correct conception of another…. and being an asshat in the process

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fuckin’ right I am.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holy shit

an Oilers fan who gets a joke. I am starting to like this Doogie2K character.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I confound the Flames fans I’m surrounded by when they tell me my team sucks and I go, “Yeah, yeah, I know. Don’t remind me.”

(I live in Calgary and root for Edmonton, and I’m sticking up for a Toronto blog. It’s the holy trinity of things Vancouver fans hate.)

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

(I live in Calgary and root for Edmonton, and I’m sticking up for a Toronto blog. It’s the holy trinity of things Vancouver fans hate.)

I need to find a hat in order to tip it in your direction.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don’t you feel dirty or something? :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oddly enough, no. But then I shower every day, which is more than I can say for a lot of people in this city.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I feel dirty

just reading that statement that yankee box quoted. You sir, are the Anti-Salo!
Er, but I’m not an oilers hater tho.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rec'd for accuracy

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seconded

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let me help you along.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha, nice try, I appreciate the vitriol, but you are in fact the one who is wrong. All that means is that if you give me permission to translate your book in a certain jurisdiction, I own the copyright to that translation. But I need to have your permission to make and distribute that translation in the first place.

If JK Rowling says you have the right to publish a French version in Canada, then I go ahead and publish such a French version in Canada, she can’t then go and just use my translation and publish it in France. She either needs to make a different translation or get my permission. But no one can publish anything in France without at least her permission.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

And that document was written 120+ years ago. The principle holds: the translation is an original work in the sense that copying and pasting it wholesale would be an act of plagiarism; translating on its own is not. The most you could argue is that he didn’t have the permission of Hokej.cz to translate it, but then Internet convention has allowed, to this point, that you may quote excerpts with attribution and link back, which the translator did. And yes, I know, he translated the whole thing, but we get back to the point that translations are not excerpts.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. See below. Publishing a translation of a COPYRIGHTED WORK requires permission of the rightsholder. ALWAYS.

All that section is that, should someone make a translation (i.e. have the right to make it either because it is of something NOT copyright or because it is of something that they received permission to do) then no one else can use that translation without their permission in the same sense that no one else can use any copyrighted material without permission.

But press can generally publish EXCERPTS of most copyrighted material for legitimate press purposes. In the US that’s called “fair use”. What PPP was not an excerpt but the whole thing.

What law school, if any, did or do you go to? FAIL

You seriously think anyone can just translate any book they want and then distribute however you like?

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

We’re talking about books now? Wow, when did that happen?

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude. A book or an article is the same from a rights perspective. I’m trying to explain how wrong you are with a very clear example.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Did you bother to ask if the translator got permission, or are you making a rather large assumption?

Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Aug 20, 2010 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s a fair point, and so far it is an assumption. But based on the defensive comments I’ve seen from the those posting on PPP, I think my assumption is more than likely correct.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow. Asshat troll. Nice.

So where does Google Translate or Babel Fish fit on the spectrum? Should that whole operation be shut down?

Articles weren’t available freely on the Internet when the Berne Convention was written. This was clearly written with paid publications only in mind. I think a pretty good case can be made that it no more applies to webpages outside of pay walls than it does to posters put up on walls downtown.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

All google does is provide a tool for you to view a website in its same location with translated texts. They don’t put their own ads on it. And they don’t story or publish it. You, the end user must do it yourself. It is a tool, no different than reading it yourself and writing down your own translation using a dictionary.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

When most content is freely available without any direct costs to the end user, I’m not sure you can apply the same standards you could to, say, a magazine article. Posting scans, for example, is dirty pool in every sense, but I don’t see how posting a translation of an article you don’t have to pay for, with attribution, is necessarily the same. Sites a hell of a lot bigger than PPP have done so for sites a hell of a lot bigger than Hokej.cz, and there’s never been a legal or ethical issue. A person who doesn’t speak the language would never visit that site anyway, so there’s no marginal loss in terms of eyeballs and thus ad revenue, and the site that originated the story still gets credit for their original work.

I understand what you’re saying from a copyright law perspective, and you may technically be right, but given how different the Internet is from every other medium in history, I’m not sure it’s relevant. Moreover, as I said in my other reply, it’s not about the legal ramifications, but about the ethical ones, and ethically, I can’t find fault with what the PPP user did.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’ll respond to you when you admit that legally I was 100% right and you were 100% wrong, despite your embarrassing taunting.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

hehehehehehehe you look the fool

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

As written earlier, I never said there was a reason to call out legal hit squads, all I tabled was what many seem to be saying: it was either plagiarism (at worst) or done so without proper sourcing (at least).

Maybe the entire piece translated in English is excessive (if not incorrect, I don’t know), but I don’t see how the Sun “wins” when, in your own breakdown, no one is playing by the rules of the game. If the rules around this sort of thing online are loose to begin with, then you’re back at square one which is the ethics of the thing…and in that case, PPP cited the original (and linked to them) whereas the Sun (with all their resources) posts an almost word for word copy of said translation three days later and, last I saw from PPP, the Sun has already admitted they read their version of the translation first. Right there you don’t cite that? If the guy had just said something like “first seen on a Toronto fan blog” that’s at least in the right direction.

If you don’t like PPP being ‘dickish’ about it on Twitter, that’s fine. They chose the squeaky wheel gets the grease approach; to each their own. To their credit it worked in so far as we’re all examining it.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

the Sun has already admitted they read their version of the translation first

clrkaitken provided the quote from the Sun above.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn't the pettiness of PPP kinda the point?

Legalities aside, can’t we all agree that PPP is acting a little petty about someone using their translated article as inspiration for an article when it was a whole different writers article to begin with. Getting up on your high horse when you’ve already “stolen” an article seems a little silly. Especially given the fact that they use parts of and sometimes whole articles from the sun for content on their blog.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Disagree. All they are asking for is credit. Just like the credit they give to others when they use parts or whole of other content. It’s what professionals do, give credit where due.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe they were protecting him from legal action

If the lawyers on here are to be believed and I think they are, then maybe not giving credit to an illegally translated article was in fact the thing to do here.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Beantown Canuck is saying “quoting the whole article exceeds fair use,” which I can definitely see. But on the other side, teachers can copy out whole poems and articles, etc, and it’s still fair use. However, I’m not sure how this applies to news reporting at all, just academia. So maybe I’m dead wrong.

In this case, it’s not like there’s an unauthorized Chinese version of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone flitting about, and the real publisher is losing sales because they were about to come out with a translation of their own. They weren’t going to come up with an English version of their own. So it’s difficult to see how Hockej.cz is being materially harmed.

I think it really is the ethics of the thing, though. And translators’ work does matter to me. I cited copyright as an example of a place where translations are certainly recognized as such, but to me, it’s the principle that matters more than anything. Even if I used Google’s translator (which no one is suing either) I would have cited it.

How upset PPP should be allowed to get over it seems to be a matter of personal opinion.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

But doesn’t it seem a little stupid to cry about something being “stolen” from you when you “stole” it in the first place? Think about that in any other application of life.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

As I said above, I don’t think it was “stolen,” but maybe I’m wrong. They translated it for news purposes, and gave appropriate credit to the original source.

The way I see it, there are two levels of work: the original author and the translator. If I use a quote, I cite both.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you’re okay with two wrongs make a right type of thing?

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 20, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t really see it as anyone being wrong. But, to answer your question. I’m ok with not bitching about something you have no problem doing.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think their problem is that they never claimed the Czech’s article as work of their own; they cited it, and linked to it. Whereas this translation did not originate from the Toronto Sun or the Czech site, but you would never know that if you’d just read the Sun’s article.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Besides the fact they are based on the exact same source material the articles seem very different to me. It’s not as if they just copy and pasted the article then fixed a few grammatical errors. Papers write articles based on the same source material all the time all PPP had here was a scoop on the story but that doesn’t give you any exclusivity.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

They are not alleging plagarism of the entire article. They are saying that he lifted the translation from PPP.

The Toronto Sun acknowledges that they first found out about the article from PPP (at least in emails), but they’re claiming that their reporter used Google translator, checked it against PPP’s translation, and “made his own corrections.” Except the quotes were lifted verbatim, so none of his “own corrections” are apparent.

That two different people came up with the exact translation is highly unlikely. One synonym, one word rearrangement would have helped…but that didn’t happen, so it’s pretty blatant.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

But as Beantown stated

you can’t translate an entire article without permission even if you cite it. You can only use portions of it such as quotes in the context of an article. Fair use I believe he called it.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

As a teacher, I can reproduce entire articles and it’s still fair use. So, as I said, I don’t know if it’s that clear cut.

They said all along where the source was coming from.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well clearly there is a difference

between being a teacher and posting on a blog. But like you I don’t know what the difference is legally.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like your sneering implication, I’m sure! As I stated several times, I don’t know if I’m wrong. Unlike yourself.

Good night.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m sorry, I misread that. You admit you might not be wrong as well.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am wrong often enough

that it would border on the illegal not to admit it.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me too. :)

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 20, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it has something to do with your audience. As a teacher I assume you’re not making money by reproducing the article, as in you’re not selling it to your students. However, both PPP and the Sun use the reproduction to attract pageviews and therefore ad revenue.

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

As a teacher, you can do it for teaching purposes

Not as a hobby or quasi-profit making enterprise such as a blog

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Stolen an article"?

You have got to be kidding me. We posted a translation of a Czech language report with clear crediting and linking to the original source so that anyone that could read it would follow it to the source.

Again, not sure how it’s petty to want a media organization to admit that it lifted their story from our site.

The good news is that you username certainly suits you.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 22, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Look, we understand your perspective on this, but that’s not how it works. You need permission to translate anything, at least if you want to have any legal rights.

I mostly agree with your perspective, but you have to understand that PPP’s nose isn’t clean on this one. “Clear crediting and liking to the original source” is meaningless legally; someone else’s work was posted in its entirety on our site.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Aug 22, 2010 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I understand what you’re saying, Yankee. But my point is that if everyone is a little dirty, the dirty guy who starts pointing at others to accuse those others of dirtiness…. well I don’t got no respect for that.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

First, I’m not saying anyone’s in the right or not on the plagiarism bit or the alleged response, I’m saying milking it is wrong. Second, I hate that whole MSM pisses on bloggers for credibility bit. You want credibility? Don’t air your dirty laundry about their response real time on twitter. Don’t sit on your cross moaning poor me while you insult the writer who wronged you and their employer with petty little digs. Cuz, if that’s the example of ‘professional’ for a blogger, I guess I see why the old school guys piss on the bloggers. :)

This whole thing has got me thinking now… Are bloggers and MSM not really the same thing now, just with a different revenue source? Is gilles a worse writer than say, Lambert? Does anyone care? They’re both bad. And doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING: creating controversy to increase readership. Does one get paid more or less than the other? (Side note:I know a blogger who clears 10k a month just thru effective SEO and a lack of fear of annoying his readers with lame ads. 10k a month! Sitting at home writing about cell phones and computer fans. Brilliant.) Have not the bloggers BECOME the MSM? I get more news from blogs than from paper, and i’m not the exeption. There should be synergy between the two forums…bloggers are the op/ed version of the news.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

To your first point, I can’t argue if you don’t like how they reacted to it, but it doesn’t negate the problem either. PPP making a stink about it (in the offseason no less) is only driving traffic and clicks to them as well. If traffic is the overall goal, the Sun should be thanking PPP (again!).

To your second point, shit the lady who lives beneath me at the moment sounds like your friend…running a website that reviews electronics (to which I don’t think she knows too much about in the first place) and makes enough to cover a mortgage which on a house in SF isn’t easy. So I assume drug dealing is involved…nevertheless, I agree with you about the dividing line. MSM as a term is outdated even though I use it in a pinch. All the same media heavyweights use twitter and blog just like the rank and file like we do.

I think the dividing line is in what’s covered: the newspaper guys have the player access and the daily grind, we can sit back and analyze a bit more. Hell when it comes to analyzing a player or stats on a team, I would trust any regular here over what I’d read in the Sun or Province (Botchford, who seems fairly switched on, notwithstanding). Then again if I wanted to know who looked shitty in practice or what Luongo said about letting in seven goals, I’d look to them.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think there is still a distinction

cause this site wouldn’t really work without main stream media. Lot’s of the stories we read, talk about, debate, and link to are from main stream sources. They still provide a lot of the content even on a blog like this one with lots of original content.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

And see, that right there is the reason that the blogs have become my main source of info…cuz I can get the information with added in depth analysis…analysis that I can be part of if I desire. That’s the power of the media age…I don’t just see a talking head or read words on a paper, I can question or read others’ questions on that information; news is no longer purely 2 dimensional and linear, it’s curvy and multidimensional. And some so called mainstream press gets that. Others dont, but they will.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

What you mean

like have a member of the mainstream media understand that a blog like this helps get them readers? It drives eyeballs to their sites? That’s heresy.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you serious?

So we should ignore what Fuller and the Sun have done just because it will interest people and attract attention to some patently unethical behaviour?

And you’re going to suggest that it’s the moral equivalent of stealing someone’s work? Wow.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 22, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure if this is directed at my comment because it’s hard to line up the paragraphs at this point. But for the record, I wasn’t arguing moral equivalency. I think what Fulller/Sun did is morally worse than what you guys did at PPP. I’m just saying that what they did is likely legally kosher, and what you guys did is not. So for separate reasons you both have dirty hands in the big picture — and again, not saying they are equivalent or comparable or anything, just that they are both not kosher.

Which is why my bigger point is that the stink you’re raising over this I don’t have sympathy for, because you’re acting as though you can make up the rules for your own conduct but judge the conduct of others by an external, societal standard. And I have a problem with that.

As I said elsewhere, if you just did a sarcastic response (‘hahaha and you call yourselves professional media’ ) as one tends to expect (and enjoy) from the blogosphere, then I would have been on team PPP on this one. But the agressive I-told-you-so-ness of your reaction, in light of the bigger picture, is something I do not respect.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 23, 2010 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

If true

Then the guys at PPP are probably pushing a little too hard, and being a bit ornery considering they may be in the wrong as well

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

People do it all the time on the web. And again, I don’t know Czech law or Canadian law on this, but basically in the US, pretty much what usually happens in a one off situation like this is either nothing at all (99% of the time), or the rightsholder asks the violater to remove the content (1% of the time). So really, PPP doesn’t have any chance of getting in trouble over this, but in reality, again I’m only assuming the rules in Canada are similar to US law, they are also in the wrong here.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

How come

in all the rosterbating everyone is counting Salo as LTIR but not Burrows? Is there not cap relief there as well?

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes there is, but not much compared to the cost of his replacement. I.e. if it’s Schroeder in for Burr, that’s $1 mill of cap relief.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Except

that we already assume shredder is in, in many cases. I don’t see talk about replacing him, I see talk about using a 2 way moose to replace a 3rd/4th line guy and everyone move up one.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everyone needs to remember that the cap relief you get while someone is under LTIR is only usable during the time they are under LTIR. You cannot save up and then apply it later in the season, unlike regular cap space.

Example:
Let’s say we start the season with total team cap-hit of $58.4 mill, which is $1 mill below the salary cap. Should we then play half the season under that circumstance, we can now add a $2 million salary player to the team for the remainder of the season without having to drop anyone else (so I guess we had been playing with a 21 or 22 man roster the first half under this scenario).

However, let’s say we start the season with a total team cap-hit of $59.4 mill, which is exactly the salary cap. Should a player on our team whose salary is $1 million be placed on LTIR for the first half of the season, if we do not use anyone to fill in for him during the first half of the season, we would have NO cap room when he returns in the second half. However, during the first half, while he is injured, we would be allowed to add $1 million more of salary to our team. But once he comes back we would have to shed all that extra salary somewhere.

So basically, if we start the season with too much salary, having Salo and Burrows out merely prolongs our need to dump some players. In the end, assuming no other comparable LTIR pop up along the way, we’re going to have to make some major moves.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you BC, this can’t be repeated enough. I see LTIR mixed up a lot these days in regards to Salo.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think most of us understand this by now

when people talk about Salo and Burr being on LTIR to start the season I think they are basically saying we don’t have a ton of pressure to get under the cap by the start of the season.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it’s a mixed bag. This wasn’t directed at anyone in general, just trying to make sure we’re all on the same page.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, I get all that Beantown. I understand the LTIR piece. My question was why in all the cap solutions everyone talks about us having (including being able to keep both Mitchell and Juice until Salo comes back if we dump some small numbers) no one ever includes the LTIR relief of Burrows, who is probably out til december as well.

Yes, we will need to move some bodies come that time, but it would be nice for MG to have 3 months before it gets desperate. That gives us some injury cushion as well as the ability to create value for a player. Sux for the player, but is good for the team.

The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC

by Twitchy2010 on Aug 20, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I know what you mean (see response above… my comment wasn’t directed at you, but about the LTIR relief -based rosterbations in general).

I think I’m just hesitent to try and use the LTIR leeway to hedge our bets that something better will come by. I would like to get Bieksa traded soon.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Give

the soulless ginger 25 games. That should suffice.

"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan

C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner

by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 20, 2010 12:59 PM PDT reply actions  

I think everyone here has the right idea

About a 2/3rds Lu 1/3rds Schneids split makes sense.

That would give Schneider 27 games.

The key factor is how these games are distributed, give Lu more rest on the longer road trips and back to back games obviously, and give the ginger as many games as possible in the first half to both keep Lu fresh for the playoffs and hopefully build up Schneider’s trade value for a deadline deal.

by jdk13 on Aug 20, 2010 1:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Good news, Nucksmisconduct, should you ever get in a legal spat with PPP, I believe you have better lawyers.

by Beantown Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Been reading up on “Fair Use” laws, BC? 8)

by Thursday on Aug 20, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

We just can't afford them

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you take payment in form of high fives?

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’ll pitch in a fiver if need be.

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am willing to do a fist bump

but we have to be careful not to end up with the dreaded “ball and socket”

http://www.elevationgeneration.org/blog/2010/03/high-five-etiquette/

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on Aug 20, 2010 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha, I’ve totally done that before. That’s awesomely depressing.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just make sure you’re paper and say “Paper covers rock, bitch!”

by marcness52 on Aug 20, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks, Demitri!

Hey, has he got another season on the go yet, or has he moved on to other things?

by Thursday on Aug 20, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn’t know it was from him. Just heard that from a friend of mine so I have no idea.

by marcness52 on Aug 20, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oops! Didn’t mean to bust your buddy – I’ve been watching shows I’ve missed at the Comedy Network, and Martin’s was one of them. Still can’t find the new Futurama though, damn it!

Yeah, yeah – I’m a fanboy.

by Thursday on Aug 20, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

This one?

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

WOOT!

Er… I mean “Yes, thank you for the information”.

WOOT!

by Thursday on Aug 21, 2010 2:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

That video’s awesome!

by marcness52 on Aug 20, 2010 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

"As your attorney...

…I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top. And you’ll need the cocaine."

I suggest we get a retainer fund going. Just in case.

by Thursday on Aug 20, 2010 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ahhh…a fellow fan…

That was from Fear and Loathing right? 1 or 2?

My absolute fave was Curse of Lono…some of the best use of Steadmans work

I miss the crazy bastard…stopped reading Rolling Stone ( always tried to read his stuff, even in the later years )…when I heard he did the deed.

by vancitydan on Aug 20, 2010 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh…here;s one of my faves…talking about his" attorney"

"There he goes. One of God’s own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."

by vancitydan on Aug 20, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fear and Loathing

is the reason I avoid ether.

"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan

C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner

by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 20, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec;d

For making me laugh!

Better movie, the Johnny Depp Fear and Loathing, or the Bill Murray “Where the Buffalo Roam”?

I vote for the latter.

by vancitydan on Aug 20, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haven't seen the latter

Fear and Loathing is awesome. Also the reason I don’t stop in Bat Country.

"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan

C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner

by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 20, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

You have to see Where the Buffalo Roam. Its Bill Murray as Hunter, and the lare , great Peter Boyle as his lawyer.

Fantastic movie…its sort of like Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail brought to life. So many good scenes. A Nixon one( “Fuck the Doomed”..).the hitchhiker scene lifted from F&L in Vegas…

Two big thumbs up…

by vancitydan on Aug 20, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m a huge Gilliam fan, so I lean toward the former. You know that was actually Thompson’s red convertible in the movie? I really think they caught the feel of the book, and Depp and del Toro did a fine as the Doctor and his attorney…

Last one of his I read was “Hey, Rube” – solid work.

by Thursday on Aug 21, 2010 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I love Gillian too...both were good!

I will have to look for tHey Rube. I guess I missed one. The Rum Diaries is an interesting read too, because it is semi autobiographical, and though you can see the stirrings of the Gonzo journalism to come, it is actually pretty illuminating as a look into the youth that shaped him.

I liked the way WTBR was almost a collection of linked vignettes…like giving the Super bowl tickets to the two brothers in front of the hotel, complete with press pass, and then seeing them bust in on the guys broadcasting the game …

Or his editor calling and getting the same guys, partying with his midget/housekeeping football team and others…

“Hunter? There’s no hunter here!, this. is. a. party,not a safari …”

by vancitydan on Aug 21, 2010 2:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey Rube was his last.

He got a very mature voice in it – he’s the mad uncle no one talks about and all the kids are afraid to go near when he’s sitting in his chair, drink in hand, staring into the past. There’s a startling clarity of vision in some of the pages.

It’s a collection of his stuff with ESPN. It’s not to everyone’s taste, but I liked it. I’ll pull The Rum Diaries out of the library – it’ll be interesting to see how his voice changed!

by Thursday on Aug 21, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the info on that one. I will have to find it and devour it. Re read Curse of Lono too. The stories where he dragged poor ol Ralph along are always fun. And that one is better than most at taking him along the Gonzo path…I mean…there to cover the marathon, and ends up in sacred caves?

Damn…guess I have to dig that one out too!

Which one was the Kentucky derby story in again? Was that F&L on the Campaign Trail? I know it was originally a magazine article… Another fave.

Definitely a one of a kind kind of guy.

by vancitydan on Aug 21, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Definitely a one of a kind kind of guy.

Yeah. Would loved to have talked to him (alcohol ONLY for the duration, thanks! And that’s for both of us…) but I can’t say I’d have liked to have been his neighbour! 8)

by Thursday on Aug 22, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Asham to PIT

There goes that rosterbation target.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 3:58 PM PDT reply actions  

I guess they realized they missed Jarkko Ruutu more then they thought they would.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh hey, look

some hockey news! Thankyou Yankee, I was getting bored of all the legal mumbo jumbo discussions above. Am I the only one that couldn’t give a rat’s ass?

by British Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

No.

Hmm I’m gonna have to start liking that Asham guy now…

by andrew21nz on Aug 20, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

At least he didn’t have to travel too far

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Probably why he signed for only 700K… doesn’t have to move his family…

by splnwezel on Aug 20, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shit

The penguins are doing a pretty good job this offseason. If only they could find some wingers for Crosby…

"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"

by Semi_Colon on Aug 20, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think this hurts. The Canucks need to get way grittier and harder to play against, I think.Asham would have been great for the bottom six.

My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile

by ThomasPratt on Aug 20, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about a trade for Ruutu?

He’s the same player as Asham but younger. Maybe Ottawa wants Bieksa?

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

As long as we're talking about the loose use of the law and ethics

Does anyone watch Whale Wars on Animal Planet?

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 4:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I saw an episode. Does this really pass as television now?

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure what passes as TV anymore, but it has that reality TV tinge to it so I guess so.

I watched a few episodes recently. I can’t figure out why I can’t turn it off: either the thrill of watching the greenpeace guys fail or wanting to see more ships get rammed. And I’m on their side, at least from an ethics standpoint.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s stupid because no one eats the whales in Japan that they are catching for “research” anyway. Here, have a whaling simulator, be part of the action!

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cause killing an animal for “research” is so much better then if you were killing it to sustain life.

by Canuckelhead on Aug 20, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

You sure about that johnny? You always here in the pro whaling camp that some is consumed, I could be wrong…

The show has a whole audience predisposed. The same audience that supports Greenpeace. Add in the rest that come for high seas action, and you can see why its on the dial. ( How old am I…using that term…haven’t used a dial on a TV for a generation!)

I like how they may come for the high seas action, but they stay for the environmental message.

Even if it is Paul Watson…who I do admire for his ability to force the issue and make people at least ponder the question.

Those that hated him, and call him a enviro-terrorist are already hardened, but the show may help with the undecided…

by vancitydan on Aug 20, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, some is consumed but it isn’t popular especially among the younger generation. My point is moreso that there isn’t as much demand as they’ll have you believe.

So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.

by thelastjohnny on Aug 20, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dig their message, but can we agree Paul Watson is sort of a…I dunno, dick?

Now the NZ dude with the Bat Boat that got rammed? He’s hysterical.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2010 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lets say…earnest…driven…LOL

Yeah, Paul can be a bit dickish, but you know he sure is sincere in his beliefs.

All the people on that boat are a little off though…its kind of goes with the ..job?

by vancitydan on Aug 20, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

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