Mitchell Skating, Feeling Fine, Making a List, Checking It Twice
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 2, 2010 5:53 PM PDT
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PrintDan Murphy tweeted a little while ago that Willie Mitchell has been training and skating for 18 days and is symptom-free of his nasty concussion. Murphy says that Mitchell has narrowed his choice destination from 12 interested teams down to 4. Vancouver is most likely in the mix. I am glad for Mitchell. For the Canucks to retain his services though, they are going to have to move more than just a Kevin Bieksa. On top of that, Mike Gillis still needs to shore up the Canucks' bottom 6.
At this point it seems to me that the team has already moved on from Mitchell after acquiring Dan Hamhuis and Keith Ballard. Both have no trade clauses in their contracts, with only Ballard having a limited movement clause, where he can be traded to 1 of 7 teams of his choice, according to CapGeek. Why do I bring that up? Because I'll take a healthy Mitchell over Ballard any day of the week. Crunch the numbers, kids, because apparently Gillis is chasing Arron Asham as well. What would you do?
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Trick another GM into taking Sami Salo by convincing him that Salo is in fact The NIght Guardian (Yövartija), the first Finnish superhero.
What a warrior. Whoever gets Mitchell – assuming he’s 100% – is in for a treat.
That said…if it’s not back in Vancouver, GO EAST MAN!
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
WAAAY OUT EAST. The Far East. I can’t bear to see him in another NHL team’s jersey
Nucks Misconduct
"Here goes nothin'" - Han Solo
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 2, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Yet another “where will he end up game”? I think he’d do great in Washington, especially if they need D.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Bieksa and Niemi go to Wash, Mitchell goes elsewhere.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I still have a gut feeling Bieksa ends up in California, with any one of those teams.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m alright with Bieksa going to any of those 3, but my gut says he’s going east.
I’m not alright with Mitchell going to any of those 3, but my guy says he’s staying in the west.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Good thing have both bases covered!
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Nay, because although you will probably end up with the correct prediction, I have a very horrible feeling he will sign in the west for a reasonable amount and make us lament our decision for years.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Well not matter what I’m warming to the new D. Hammer, Ballard, Edler and Ehrhoff are an interesting mix. Once you factor Salo in (maybe), the X factors of SOB’s maturation, the possibility Alberts regains his stay at home, hitting type game and you still have Mitchell floating around? Makes me happy.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I whole-heartedly agree. My only concern is size, which is where I start to miss Mitchell.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s where SOB and Alberts are valuable, assuming they can keep their emotions in check.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I like SOB, I think he’s learned a lot in the last season, and I think him choosing not to go to arbitration shows he is willing to grow with this organization. I’m not sold on Alberts yet. Either way, that puts all our size on our 3rd D pairing.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Bieksa and Anaheim are the hot rumor…what with their thin D’…
But I am one that thinks that we can keep Mitchell on a incentive laden deal and a conditional 2nd year…you know he would want to stay.
How?
OK…well, to start, we are over the Cap, but that is 26 players right? Some of those are more shaky in getting tenure, like Hordy and some of the others both new and old.
3 less contracts, spots for rookies if they make it, there is just too many questions yet.
Maybe you trade Juice right away, maybe you don’t until camp or so.
I don’t see how we couldn’t afford Mitchell and say a 2.75 number ( a little, but not a huge haircut…maybe 3 if you are totally assured by the best head docs that he isn’t one hit away from retiring…)
With Sami and probably Burr starting the season on the IR, the Cap is not soooo dire for the Canucks.
What I don’t get is the buyer’s remorse on Ballard and/or Hamhuis …both are pretty talented all around players that will be motivated in many ways. Sure, Nashville and Fla are occasionally loud, but both these guys are getting that playing in Canada experience.
I expect both to have big years…playing our style…I predict career highs for both in their first year here. Hammer must feel he has died and gone to heaven playing on a top offensive team…same with Ballard.
;-)
From my understanding of the CBA, incentive laden deals are illegal in Willie Mitchell’s case. Could be wrong.
If we could get rid of Salo and receive a healthy Mitchell for less, I would vow to stop my voodooism on Patrick Kane.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I am too lazy to go through it, but I am pretty sure there is a clause that covers players coming off of a long term injury. If I remember the article it was quoted in a few months ago, Willie qualifies with his concussion.
Salo stays on the LTIR long enough to come back in the second half when the cost for him is less. Comes off and becomes the inspiring teflon balled story that takes the team all the way!
You have to think the Canucks would be the first choice for Willie, all things being equal. A fair contract that gives the team fkexibility…you know his pride would probably bring him home.
I know from reading other fans blogs that he is one of the other fan bases ( all over the league) most popular choices to fix their D’.
Why not do that at home?
Yes I looked this up last month.. he qualifies for bonuses.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions
You are correct, the 100 days IR exception. My apologies.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions
At this point, it’s Hammer, Ballard and Bieksa for Mitchell. Ballard and Bieksa are way too similar in my mind, with the exception that Ballard is more expensive but healthy.
Losing Mitchell will hurt no doubt.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Thus my hatred of NTC’s for mediocre players
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 2, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Who are you calling mediocre?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 2, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Well…for his fragile body…yes.
For his play? Hells no. The Canucks in the last two years have ridiculous numbers with Salo than without. They have had ample times to bring it up on broadcasts, and it really is astounding…like many, many games over 500 with him, and many below without.
Plus, he is just a very good all around defenseman. You could argue that Chitown series changed when he took one in the cajones…
I have a sneaking suspicion that he might retire. I rolled my ankle and did some achilles damage too, and though I am about ten years or so older than him…its been months and the achilles is still a nagging injury.
Dude is tough, but was blessed with the constitution of peanut brittle.
Salo is middle of the pack, a number three defenceman. NTC’s should not go to number three defencemen. They are handed out all too often nowadays.
by Timezone_Hater on Aug 3, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Well who knows if he would have signed without it? We don’t know what the sticking points were in negotiations
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
That would suggest that there were 60-75 D better in the league than Salo. I have to disagree.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Not exactly… a #3 d-man indicates your quality and what role you should have. But there don’t necessarily exist enough of those on each team… some teams have shitty guys playing top minutes because they don’t have anyone better. Consider, for example, that Kesler is a #2 centre on our team, or Malkin is a #2 on the Penguins. Malkin would be #1 on probably all but 5 teams, and Kesler would be on all but maybe 10 teams.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess
I just have found the term “number 1 d-man” being thrown around a lot recently, and there seem to be less than 30 of those in the entire NHL, which doesn’t make sense to me. I see what you mean, but I’d probably think there could be better ways to word it.
Not targeting you of course, just a general observation.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
I agree with you
We need a clear cut definition of number #1 d-man. I suspect that a lot of people using the term are reffering to the elite top 10-12 defencemen in the league.
After Mitchell was injured I’d say our #1 guy last season was Ehrhoff, is he elite? Probably not, but he was still our #1 in ice time and points.
Yeah I agree it’s confusing.
The description of a player when he’s a UFA, though, is of what role he should be. So when Hamhuis was a UFA, everyone described him as a goof second-paring d-man. But he may end up being on our de factor first pair, assuming we have a first pair, because quite frankly none of our d-men are clearcut first-pair guys.
I would say there really are no more than 10-12 or so guys in the league who are clearcut first-pair guys. There’s a glut of players who have the chops to be second pair. Most of our d-men fall in that category.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
It’ll be interesting to see how Vigneult’s defensive assignments shake out. He could use Edler and Ehrhoff as an offensive pairing, and Hamhuis-Ballard as a shut down pairing or is he going to split up Hamhuis and Ballard and have Hamhuis with Ehrhoff and Ballard with Edler for more balanced pairings? Throw Mitchell into the mix and anything could happen!
Someone else I wouldn’t forget is Edler, who although he had a down year last year, still put up pretty decent numbers, and is still pretty young. When he hits 28-30 years old, he may very well be close to the elite d-man we all dream about.
I’m not sure about his leadership qualities though, in the end that might be what seperates him from the Prongers, Lidstroms, Neidermeyers and Keiths of the world.
Modano to Detroit
Now he and buddy Turco will have to deal with each other six times a year.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
He signed?
The Wings get older, the Hawks younger…the Sharks have yet to make a move….
Hmmmm.
All kidding aside, Mikey can still play…
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 2, 2010 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I dont think
we’ll be able to get him. We’re fucked.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 2, 2010 10:39 PM PDT reply actions
Let's remember a couple things
first of all we can go over the cap right now. So if we sign Mitchell now it’s not a big deal. We have until the start of the season to shed salary. There is a chance Salo is done for good. How many 35 year olds have the determination to come back from a serious injury? He may decide to hang them up. If we move Bieksa and a SOB type for help in the bottom 6 forwards we can sign Mtichell to a one year deal plus bonuses and deal with the cap hit for the bonuses next year. If we so desire.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 2, 2010 10:42 PM PDT reply actions
Something along these lines.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($2.500m)
Mason Raymond ($2.550m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
Andrew Ladd ($2.350m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.666m)
Tanner Glass ($0.625m) / Rick Rypien ($0.550m) / Jeff Tambellini ($0.500m)
/ Arron Asham ($0.840m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Kevin Bieksa ($3.750m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($3.100m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Willie Mitchell ($1.000m)
Aaron Rome ($0.750m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) /Cory Schneider ($0.900m)
CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $90,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,155,000; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $95,000
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 2, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Willie would have to agree to a low base with
incentives and Asham would have to forgo some cash elsewhere for a chance to win. But if Willie wants more of a base salary we can get a cheaper Laddian type player.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 2, 2010 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Well..except for saying we trade Juice and then having him on the roster!
But just make up that difference by keeping SOB and paying Mitchell more with less bonuses…
SOB was pretty good as Ehrhoff’s partner, and Willie and Edler has the potential to be a fantastic shutdown pair.
Fixed
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($2.500m)
Mason Raymond ($2.550m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Andrew Ladd ($2.350m)
Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.666m)
Arron Asham ($0.840m) / Rick Rypien ($0.550m) / Victor Oreskovich ($0.575m)
/ Jeff Tambellini ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($3.100m)
Willie Mitchell ($2.000m) / Andrew Alberts ($1.050m)
Shane O’Brien ($1.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) /Cory Schneider ($0.900m)
CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $90,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,255,000; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $995,000
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 2, 2010 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
That looks good too. I don’t mind Alberts with Willie, though we could save some maney and interchange him with Romer…who I like a little better. Might need that size of Big Al’.
That 4th line looks great too…as does keeping a million back for the deadline deal, when it is worth more like a 3 mil player or so…
If only ATL would trade Ladd
for Bieksa and Hansen. But it’s not likely.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 2, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know much about him, but this Tim Kennedy guy that Buffalo let go sounds intriguing.
There are other guys out there. Both Torres and Madden are still UFAs.
If you really want him, you can always send a little extra…maybe it costs you a prospect with talent that you already have similar players of.
Adding Rodin could clinch it! Of course we would have to get Ladd and a pick so it wouldn’t be a total steal…
Can we have Salo, Mitch, Hammer, Ballard, Edler, and Blasthoff as our defense?
And Asham and Tambo in our bottom 6?
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 2, 2010 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Why sure son.
We can do anything you want. But Salo will have to be a LTIR, 2nd half inspirational story coming back for one last run at the Cup.
Play your cards right and we might even get you a Ladd or Laddian player as well….
OH BOY
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 3, 2010 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
What would I do at this point?
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
Mason Raymond ($2.550m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($2.500m)
Cody Hodgson ($1.666m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Jeff Tambellini ($0.500m)
Tanner Glass ($0.625m) / Rick Rypien ($0.550m) / Jannik Hansen ($0.825m)
Victor Oreskovich ($0.575m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($3.100m)
Willie Mitchell ($2.000m) / Andrew Alberts ($1.050m)
Aaron Rome ($0.750m) / Sami Salo ($3.500m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) /Cory Schneider ($0.900m)
CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $90,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,165,000; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $85,000
This.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Too much D
and not enough depth up front for my liking.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 3, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
With that roster, there’s still Schroeder, Bliznak, Bolduc and Shirokov in the system… but yeah, I agree Section.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
with Section.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 3, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't necessarily disagree
But Ladd simply isn’t available. And I’m not convinced that Asham is really all that much of a depth upgrade.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
So what else can we get for a Bieksa?
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 4, 2010 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Kyle Palmieri?
Or Peter Holland?
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Calvin de Haan?
Or Travis Hamonic?
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Thomas Hickey?
Or Colton Teubert?
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Brandon Kozun?
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
Picks.
Next year’s draft is apparently quite a deep one, and I’m okay with trading extra players for the future: maintaining depth throughout our system is an important thing to me.
Plus, he’s only got one year on his contract, and that reduces his value somewhat.
I'm fine with that too
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
That just can't happen
this team has a window of opportunity and it is the next two years. Having depth in the system is fine. Winning a cup is much better. We need to go for it this year and trading Bieksa for anything other than depth up front would be a blunder.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 4, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
But who do you think they could reasonable acquire for Bieksa? I like your roster you posted above, but I don’t see why the Thrashers would deal Ladd right after acquiring and signing him. Anyone else you are referring to?
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
I have no idea
it isn’t my job to know who is available and who the scouts think fits AV’s system and can perform to a high level for reasonable money. I would just be throwing shit against a wall just like we all are with Ladd. Bieksa has value right now and teams are willing to give up players off of their roster that can help us now. That has to be the play here. The only way you trade Bieksa for picks is if you can sign a free agent third line type. But even then you would most likely be paying more than if you traded for a cost controlled third liner. Someone with RFA status coming up, on an ELC, never been to arbitration. That type of player.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 4, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Someone with RFA status coming up, on an ELC, never been to arbitration. That type of player.
100% agreed. That’s what I want. I just can’t imagine we’ll get one. If we do, that’s a coup, in my books.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
"You had to have the BIG salad."
"Suit up."
"Eric, when your mom says are you ready for your catheter...the answer is no."
I don't see why not
if there is more than one team interested in Bieksa we should be able to swing that. Lots of teams have good young forwards and need help on D.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 4, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, to be fair, all they did was sign Ladd to his QO. If they loved him they would ahve signed for more years.
That was just asset management.
I am sure GMMG has the scouts reports on several guys that can be similar…but Ladd being signed sure doesn’t preclude him being traded.
I doubt Atlanta would go out of their way to get him from Chicago then sign him just to go and trade him. There’s no way Ladd is leaving Atlanta.
I agree. But anyone can be traded.
And if they traded him for/as a cornerstone or a player they love…
Why just sign him to a one year deal in arbitration?
The usual GM mo is to sign the new guy up, have the presser, etc…
I would never say never. It is unlikely. That is why we are using the term “Laddian type player”… ;-)
The Laddian one!
he shoots he scores!
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 4, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m looking at Detroit, not Anaheim, for inspiration.
Right now, the cap is causing the biggest problem. I do want a bit more scoring in there – though I’m perfectly happy to give Hodgson and/or Schroeder first crack at the third line with Hansen and Malhotra – but I don’t think we’ll get all that much in a returning skater: anyone that’s going to want Bieksa for a single year is going to think they’re close, too.
The other possibility is a team that’s got to hit the floor, but everyone knows Vancouver’s going to be tight to get under the cap, so what ever’s out there is going to be a hard bargain.
Detroit scouts, drafts and develops
players better than anyone else. You can model yourself after them but there is very little chance you will be as successful. For the most part when a team is close they have to go for it. We are close.
But I don’t agree we need any more scoring. The opposite in fact. I think we need more grit, determination, and defensive responsibility in our bottom 6 forwards and I am not sure Schroeder will ever fit on a third or fourth line.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 4, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough – we’ve got different ideas as to what a third line does. But I do have to say neither Hodgson’s nor Schroeder’s names are the first that comes to mind when I think of defencive responsibility. Are you thinking of more experienced defenders? Madden, perhaps, or someone of that ilk?
And scouting and development is exactly what this ownership of the Canucks has expanded. Detroit’s near-exclusivity in Europe ended: Vancouver has gone in with both feet and increased the scouting pool in North America, too. It looks like Detroit is their model, after all.
The Red Wings have been as good as they are for as long as they have been because of their depth. For fifteen years it’s felt like they’ve always had someone on tap to fill in the losses that they’ve had because of that very success.
Like I said they draft better than anyone
and the Nucks should try to model themselves after the Wings but they will need to step up their drafting and more importantly player development which is really what Detroit does better than anyone.
Hodgson is probably the best defensive forward we have in our system. Probably our top two way player since Kesler was in the system and he may be better at this age than Kesler was. He can play on the third line and be super effective. I just think it’s a waste of his offensive ability. I would hate to waste a year of an ELC on third line checking duties.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 5, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, to be honest I’d rather see Hodgson, Schreoder, Shirokov, Connaughton and Sauve lighting it up as the top five in Manitoba for the next year, building some confidence and chemistry rather than having them mucking on the the third line in the NHL all season.
That being said, if Hodgson makes the Canucks, it would be cool to see him get some power play time and strut his stuff a little. We’ll see what happens in October I guess.
I’d like to see us pick up through trade or free agency a solid, banging forward for the third line, someone who can eat up a lot of PK minutes and soften up the opposing D on even strength shifts. Maybe Gillis figures that’s what Oreskovich will do, time will tell!
Is detroit really just drafting? I mean, yes, their drafting is awesome, but what really puts them head and shoulders above the rest of the pack is their drafting mixed with their awesome development system. And I think it’s their development more than the drafting. All those deep draft superstars they get aren’t cuz they got a flukey draft, it’s because they recognize and know how to bring out the most growth in their prospects. And not just the players, but their coaching and support teams as well; they really have the whole package as far as acquisition and development and that’s what makes them the near dynasty that they are. THAT is a massive value, more so than the draft itself. And I gotta say, as far as purely player development goes, I don’t think the Canucks are too far behind in that. We’ve had some guys come up thru the system and far surpass all expectations (alex burrows, anyone?); no reason why that can’t continue to happen.
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"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
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Well we can compare the number of late round
picks in the Wings team to the Canucks if you want. Or we can compare the number of players they drafted and developed that are still in their lineup to the Canucks if you want. But I have a feeling it’s going to look bad for the Canucks.
Wings:
Abdelkator (42nd), Datsyuk (171st), Ericsson (291st), Franzen (97th), Filppula (91st), Helm (132nd), Holmstrom (257th), Jimmy Howard (64th), Kronwall (29th), Lidtsrom (53rd), Meech (229th), Zetterberg (210th), Osgood (51st),
That’s a total of 12 guys with an average draft position of 132.1 overall.
Canucks:
Bieksa (151st), Edler (91st), Hansen (287th), Kesler (23rd), Raymond (51st), Schneider (26th), Danny (2nd), Hank (3rd), Shirokov (163rd)
- I am being generous here as I didn’t include Hawks who might not make the team but I did throw in Shirokov.
That’s a total of 9 guys with a total draft position of 88.55 overall.
So you could argue we do a better job with first round picks but there is no argument over who drafts better in the late rounds, which is what makes the Wings elite every year and no argument over who develops their picks better.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 6, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Christ
Zetterberg went 210th?, I mean, I knew Datsyuk went late, but I didn’t know Zetterberg was later…wow.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 6, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
You don't
“develop” guys like Datsuk, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Franzen, etc, those guys might have been unpolished gems on draft day but gems nonetheless.
Yes the Wings ALSO know how to bring their talent along, but the talent has to be there to begin with, and the Wings scouts always seem to find a lot of it no matter what position they draft from.
You never know what you don't know until you know it.
One thing I'd like to say about Detroit's player development
Except for Franzen, none of their prospects went straight to the NHL. This speaks greatly of organizational depth, and their commitment to their draft picks and their development. They spent an average of 3.8 years in the minors before seeing regular duty in the NHL. If Gillis emulates them it could be another two years before we see Hodgson in the NHL. For one I wouldn’t mind, if that kind of patience results in him turning into a superb two way center, I’d be tickled pink. I, for one, can wait.
Below are the draft years and the first year each of the above mentioned Detroit players laced ’em up for more at least 41 games in a season :
Abdelkader (L)- drafted ’05 – NHL regular ’09 (50 games)
Datsyuk © – drafted ’98 – NHL regular ’01 (70 games)
Ericsson (D) – drafted ’02 – NHL regular ’09 (68 games)
Franzen® – drafted ’04 – NHL regular ’05 (80 games)
Filppula © – drafted ’02 – NHL regular ’06 (73 games)
Helm © – drafted ’05 – NHL regular ’09 (75 games)
Holmstrom (L) – drafted ’94 – NHL regular ’96 (47 games)
Howard (G) – drafted ’03 – NHL regular ’09 (63 games)
Kronwall (D) – drafted ’00 – NHL regular ’06 (68 games)
Lidstrom (D) – drafted ’89(!) – NHL regular ’91 (80 games)
Meech (D) – drafted ’02 – NHL regular ’08 (41 games)
Zetterberg (L) – drafted ’99 – NHL regular ’02 (79 games)
Osgood (G) – drafted ’91 – NHL regular ’93 (41 games)
Yeah but
There are other reasons for that, first, most of their stars were European and especially being not high picks, they tend to stay overseas for several years anyway. Second, the Wings had incredible depth for most of those years so cracking the lineup, let alone in a scoring role was a tall order, especially precap when the Wings had lots of cash to spend on UFAs and rentals.
Hodgson is too good a prospect to be stuck in the minors that long, if he doesn’t make the team this year, I’d be surprised if he doesn’t demand a trade, certainly if he still doesn’t next year.
You never know what you don't know until you know it.
Patience seems to work for them though, are they taking their time because their deep, or deep because they’re taking their time?
I think we are also similarily deep in our top six, so why rush his development? Datsyuk and Zetterberg both spent three years playing in Europe before cracking the NHL, and I would say that they are high end players.
As far as I’m concerned, he hasn’t proven himself yet at a professional level playing against men. Unless he really shines in camp, I’d send him down for a year. If he’s too proud to do what the team wants him to do, I’d be happy to trade him for another high end prospect who’s more cooperative.
Improving at the draft
..starts with the scouting, which is what the Canucks have done. You know – exactly what I said. And they (Detroit) make it very clear to their draftees: it doesn’t matter to them when they were drafted, everyone in camp starts at zero. You want ice time? Earn it, then you get it.
As for “wasting” Hodgson on the third line, who would you move? Bump Kesler to the third? That’s ridiculous. Send away Raymond, who clearly has NHL scoring chops and works well with Kesler? Send down Burrows, who’s done excellent work on the top two lines and was our leading scorer last year?
Sorry, but none of these make any sense. Add to that the fact that Hodgson hasn’t proven himself capable of NHL play (and I think he will, no mistake there) and the third line sound like where he should start. If he proves himself there, move him up, fine. But nothing should be given to a player because of where he “should” be.
Sorry I thought I was clear
I said I would hate to waste a year of his ELC on third line checking duties. I didn’t say anything about wasting Hodgson I was talking about his contract. But I also said he could play a third line role and be effective. I never once suggested putting him on a different line. I never once suggested bumping anyone off the second line. Although I would argue that Burrows, who admits himself he is a checker, and Malhotra could be a dynamite shutdown tandem on a third line. All I said is I would hate to see him on the third line using up a year of his ELC when he has talent for more and you want to get the most out of players on their ELC. The rest of this stuff about bumping players and having to earn ice time is all stuff you just fabricated out of thin air and has nothing to do with me or the points I made. And since you seemed to miss it let me highlight something important that you seem to have missed.
more importantly player development which is really what Detroit does better than anyone.Scouting is great but getting players in the late rounds to the NHL and have them be contributors is as much, and arguably more, about player development.
Oh and please explain how you are sure we have improved at the draft? We think we have but until guys like Schnieder, Hodgson and Schroeder contribute to the team in some way we are no better than we were 5 or 10 years ago. We get the occasional Kesler or Sedin, and the occasional Bieksa or Edler, but we still haven’t proven we are improving at the draft or at developing players. It seems like we have done better lately but it hasn’t been proven yet.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 6, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
The Gillis era players should start showing something this year. Guys like CoHo and Shredder will get a chance, and I for one am excited to see how prospect camp works out with guys like Connauton, Volpatti, and all the other non traditional players like Oberg and Tanev.
Those are all GMMG guys.
BTW….not you Section, but I think Thursday mentioned Burrows. He was actually found by Craig Heizinger…our secret weapon GM for Manitoba. I think he was instrumental with Rypien too.
Of course we have to have them contribute before getting excited, but from a long term Canuck fan, it is nice seeing some depth that other teams get excited about and ask about…instead of that one good guy that gets traded just when he is about to break out. ( and no…Grabner is not like a …say…Neely in that regard!!! LOL)
As for the lines, I think the Canucks are trying to learn a little something from the Hawks this time, and have versatile players that can move up and down the lineup according to need.
Hodgson looks to have the talent to be able to do that.
Sort of a difference from teams that have two scoring lines and a checking and then a crash line.
A Top 9 that are all defensively responsible, and a momentum line.
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