Who Would You Rather Have: Kevin Bieksa Or Willie Mitchell?
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:07 AM PDT
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With the Cadillac of the available defensemen in the shop (debate that amongst yourselves), all eyes will be back on two stalwarts of the Canucks blueline: Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Bieksa. Mike Gillis is up to his neck in blueliners but what happens with these two will have a definitive impact on both Vancouver and a few other clubs looking to shore up their defense.
As of this morning, Gillis is still trying to keep Mitchell from jumping ship while also trying (presumably) to deal Juice to help the Canucks shed at least $2,658,333 in cap excess. It's also possible that, with Salo on LTIR (for the rest of his life?), Gillis can try to move some lower buys like Shane O'Brien and Andrew Alberts, bury Aaron Rome in Manitoba and maybe purge some existing wingers (cough Hordichuk cough). But that would rob Vancouver of defensive depth it likely wants (especially after last season) and, from an asset management perspective, Bieksa is a proven top four guy over third line options in an unpredictable SOB and Alberts (the latter of which could potentially be looking at his fourth team in three years).
It's highly unlikely Vancouver retains both Willie and Juice. It's far more possible one will remain or both will be sporting new uni's in seven weeks. So we at least know one final change is coming to the Canucks defense; we just don't know what it will look like yet.
If they keep Willie Mitchell and deal Kevin Bieksa, he'll need to slot in somewhere in the top pairings with Hamhuis and Ballard, leaving Edler, Ehrhoff, O'Brien, Alberts & Rome to fill out the rest. Vancouver needs to roll Mitchell/Hamhuis as the top pairing, eating up the harder zone starts and the tougher opposition. Puts a smile on my face just thinking about it. The more offensive-minded Edler and Ehrhoff can be split into the second and third pairings, each anchored with more of a defensive-minded partner in Ballard or perhaps SOB/Alberts (coincidentally, the exact same make-up of the Mitchell/Bieksa pairing of a few seasons ago). If Mitchell is less than 100%, Vigneault can start the season with him on the second pairing with Ballard and bump up Edler to top line duties.
If Mitchell leaves then Bieksa/Hamhuis could take top billing - but like above - I suspect it'll be Edler and Hamhuis with Bieksa and Ballard acting as clean up. Either way, it's possible that with Hammer/Ballard/Bieksa/Edler mixed into the top four that Ehrhoff (the leading point getter on the blueline last season) drops to third line duties, though he'll earn his keep on the PP. Or maybe I'm overvaluing Ballard too much? Someone needs to take a step down.
In either example, SOB or Alberts head to Manitoba when (or if) Salo returns and perhaps old 'spody bones get sheltered third line minutes and ample PP time before he climbs back to the second pairing.
For fun, if somehow Mitchell and Bieksa both stay (and I have no idea how they pull back under the cap in that case), you'd have a top four of Mitchell/Hamhuis/Bieksa//Ballard and a wacky third line of Ehrhoff/Edler. SOB and Alberts can thumb wrestle for the 7th slot, Salo may as well retire and Rome will need a plague to inflict the corps to escape from Winnipeg.
Far more plausible is that Bieksa and Mitchell both move on. In that case, Luongo will guard the crease behind pairings like Edler/Hamhuis, Ehrhoff/Ballard, Alberts/SOB with Rome as the warm body in 7th. I can't see how the team doesn't want Salo drinking every magical elixir known to Finnish scientists because the third pairing has potential car wreck written all over it, though Rome has proven himself to be more than serviceable.
Deciding between Bieksa or Mitchell determines the face of the defense: either they have a legit #1 defenseman in Mitchell or they dedicate to the committee approach without him. If Mitchell stays - and I'd imagine this is part of management's selling point on a lesser contract - he'll lead a more defensive-minded group that has to depth to reduce his individual effort on a nightly basis and, ideally, to go deeper into the post season against the elites. Maybe one final factor: Gillis, with Luongo smiling happily at his side, offers Mitchell the captaincy to boot?
If not, then it'll be the first time since 1998-1999 that Vancouver doesn't have a clear #1 defenseman. At that time, Bryan McCabe was the closest guy to it (but, like the Canucks that season, had an off-year and was traded the following summer), Mattias Ohlund was a sophomore and Adrian Aucoin luckily had his breakthrough (23 goals & 18 on the PP). Lacking a defined #1 guy isn't the worst scenario, certainly not when you have talents like Ehrhoff, Edler and Bieksa mixed in with Ballard and Hamhuis. With luck, Edler plays strong in his end while adding to his 42-point campaign, maybe a camp standout in the form of Oberg or Sauve gives Vigneault options or perhaps SOB and Alberts just don't tank. The fact that Gillis made the Ballard and Hamhuis deals this summer suggests he clearly isn't against the committee approach if Mitchell does indeed leave.
Mitchell and Bieksa are both risk/reward scenarios: if you risk Mitchell is back to normal, won't be as susceptible to another concussion (how do you guard against that exactly?) and won't change his style of play, he's a rock to have and the fact that Vancouver, Los Angeles, Washington, San Jose, Columbus and others have kept him on speed dial is a testament to that. Bieksa can give you a dependable blueliner with a big offensive upside and no shortage of grit; the next night he'll miss the net with every shot and get caught sleeping by a speedy winger. He shows the potential to be a #1 defenseman and yet he's a career -20 who's consistency has been handcuffed due to injury in five Vancouver seasons.
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Mitchell/Hamhuis would be delish.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 16, 2010 11:02 AM PDT reply actions
Seriously. I haven’t thought about Mitchell coming back at all, but the fact that pairing is still a viable option is stunning.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Gillis realizes this and that’s why he’s still trying to sign Mitchell.
Having 10 bazillion defensemen kinda sucks but when it results in a pairing like that, I can understand it.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 16, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
One of the Twitterati ( name escapes me…coffee por favor!) is saying that Mitchell has given the Nucks a deadline. So, I look for the trade of BXA to come today or tomorrow.
Canucks can sign Mitchell prior to dumping Bieksa I believe, especially if it’s to a bonus-laden contract. But of course that could make it harder to get value back for Bieksa
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Jizz in my pants
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Don't tell your friends
or I’ll say you’re a slut.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 16, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m torn. Willie isn’t the be-all a lot of people consider him to be, imo. I want the pre big contract Bieksa, when his decision making process seemed to be wired properly. Failing that, I guess I have to go with Big Stick, because he’ll be cheaper and more reliable in his own end. When Kev does get traded, whichever team gets him is getting a good addition to their D.
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
Both, Change doesn’t frighten me. I just want both.
You can cry a million tears
You can wait a million years
If you think that time will change your ways
Don't wait too long
by Joe Hockey Fan on Aug 16, 2010 11:29 AM PDT reply actions
I've never been a consistent fan of bieksa
much like he’s never been a consistent player for the Canucks. I would be fine to see him traded and agree that whoever gets him will probably get someone who will be a force eventually. If we keep either one we really do have 5 top 4 defensemen, which puts us in the enviable position of having 3 defensive lines that can comfortably play top 4 minutes, if they need to. Alternately we’d be able to ice a top line and two second lines, which gives us a pretty powerful back end. Who says anyone has to be the third line with SOB/Alberts…why not have those two and the other 3 guys all interchangeable…that would be some powerful stuff. Just think how nice it would be to always ice the best defensive pairing against a given opponent on a given night; defense by committee only better. SOB proved last year that he is capable of playing 22-25 minutes a night if needed, and I’m pretty sure Alberts could too…so why worry about who’s the second line guy? We have three guys we know for sure we can pick from (Edler, Errhoff, Ballard) and two guys who can easily fill the other slot if needed. Can we dress 7 d a night tho?
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
You can dress 7 D if you want, but you need 20 including 2 goalies so that would leave 11 forwards.
Or, as Mozy just asked on Twitter, you could run the Bieksa as forward idea again.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
To be a functional team, you need to have a 22 man roster. It’s too hard to deal with small injuries otherwise.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh i didn’t mean that question literally, I know we technically can dress 7 D…I meant can we dress 7 D practically speaking, which I don’t know that we can. Which leaves Alberts and SOB keeping the press box warm fairly regularly. Which kinda sux.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
by Twitchy2010 on Aug 16, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
I think this is the most obvious poll ever. Obviously the ideal plausible scenario would be keep Mitchell and ditch Mitchell. Assuming Mitchell is healthy and is willing to take a bonus-oriented contract. Bieksa can just be waived away for all I care if we get Mitchell (though I would be very happy with a $1 mill-or-less legit third line winger in return)
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:43 AM PDT reply actions
Waived away?
Bieksa is still a asset, albeit an unaffordable one. Something better be coming the other way.
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
Yes, the asset in return is Mitchell. If someone said “I will trade you Willie Mitchell at $2 mill contract plus bonuses for Kevin Bieksa at $3.75” what would you say? This is practically the same thing. I mean I would like to get something for him, but I’m just saying, even if I couldn’t, that alone is an improvement to me.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I’ve heard more than a few Juice proponents over the summer so I thought I’d let them speak their mind. You can argue he’s more versatile (can do the winger thing if necessary) and that his injuries are anything but pedestrian. But a #1 he’s not and I that’s probably where this starts and stops for most folks.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t call Willie a #1 either. Or Hamhuis. Or Ballard. Or Erhoff. But I do like the defense as a group.
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
I’d say Willie, while not a #1 defenseman in terms of the NHL, is a good defensive leader, and not having that leadership on the back end hurt the Canucks in the playoffs, I think. Hamhuis might have similar qualities (I honestly don’t know) but bringing in Willie helps solidify the back end, I think.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 17, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Heard on the radio this morning that Mitchell has a two year offer from the Kings.
I understand from our perspective why we’d want to get him cheap, one year and incentive-laden, but from his perspective, a 30+ D with a concussion history, I’d want the most assured money and term that I can get, since I’m one good hit away from retirement.
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
by ThomasPratt on Aug 16, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Definitely have to consider that: Mitchell may be one hit away from Lindros land, Bieksa isn’t.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t have the numbers and can’t look them up right now since I’m at work, but it seems that if the Canucks have to offer Mitchell two years to compete with LA’s offer, that makes it very unlikely they would be able to keep Ehrhoff beyond this coming season.
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
by ThomasPratt on Aug 16, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Well…Salo is in his last year. That money would make it pretty likely that Ehrhoff could be afforded…
Salo, Bieksa. Alberts, SOB, Hansen, Glass, Hordi, and Ehrhoff are all off the books next year. Ehrhoff is the only must re-sign. He currently makes $3.1 mill. Who knows what kind of year he has this upcoming season, but I can see him being signed for around $4.5-$5 mill. If the salary cap goes up again, should be easily doable. Even doable if it doesn’t… none of those other players are ‘musts’.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Well…Salo is in his last year. That money would make it pretty likely that Ehrhoff could be afforded…
I’ll check at home later, but I think Salo and Ehrhoff make roughly the same amount now and you have to figure Ehrhoff will be due a raise to put him not far from Hamhuis and Ballard
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
by ThomasPratt on Aug 16, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
As per capgeek, Sami makes 3.5 mil this year, the Hoff gets 3.1.
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
With Salo off the books next year, the Canucks will be able to have a cheaper option for their bottom pairing and be able to afford a raise for Ehrhoff. No problem.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
Obviously the ideal plausible scenario would be keep Mitchell and ditch Mitchell.
That’s just mean, even for a lawyer :)
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Hahaha… obviously meant to say “keep Mitch, ditch Bieksa”. I’m surprised no one else caught that. wowzers!
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Hahaha… obviously meant to say “keep Mitch, ditch Bieksa”. I’m surprised no one else caught that. wowzers!
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Is Kaberle really a Cadillac?
or is he really a P.O.N.T.I.A.C.?
(poor old NHLGM thinks it’s a Cadillac)
on the Mitchell front ....
Is Vigneault adept enough to give all the top-6 D adequate minutes to keep them happy? or better question yet, can he communicate well enough to ensure that they will be happy with (in some cases) reduced ice-time in supporting a better-rounded team?
Good question. But Willie will be second pairing in LA for sure. In Van, he’ll be 1.5 pairing. So if he wants more important minutes, Vancouver is the option to go for (of those two teams, mind you). But that begs the question, what does he want?
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with Thomas Pratt
If I were at risk of a long-term or perhaps career-ending injury … and let’s face it, as a D-man in the “new-NHL”, the risk is entirely there …. I would be more interested in any long-term incentive to ensure that my family is sufficiently taken care of post-hockey. I go to where there is guaranteed money over a fixed term, rather than going where the fishing (and fan-base) is top-notch.
i think your projected pairings with bieksa are off
he’s the most likely of the 5 “top 4” dmen that we have to drop to the 3rd pair, with sob, which is a role he’s played the last couple seasons at times anyway. if ehrhoff is playing 3rd pair minutes that means you can kiss him goodbye after this season because i can’t see gillis spending what it’s going to take to keep him if that’s where he fits.
as for your poll, the huge benefit of keeping mitchell (regardless of what you do with bieksa) is that there isn’t another dman on the roster that plays like him. bieksa, ballard, hamhuis and at a lower level rome are all the same guy: the good skating smallish dman that tries to play more physical than their size and can chip in offensively. ehrhoff is a better skater than anyone else on the team and is more purely offensive, and edler is a prototypical all around dman in terms of size and skills but doesn’t play consistently physical enough to reach his potential. if he played every game like he did the first couple in the kings series he’d be the unquestioned #1 guy on the team, which makes me sad because he never does that, but he’s still young and maybe he can still get there.
re: the pairings – that’s totally fair. I was just spitballing the pairings based on last season. I said someone needs to step down. Bieksa, on a third pairing, would be fine though I can’t imagine he’ll love it. Also you’re paying nearly $4 million for the third pairing which is a tough pill to swallow.
so what pairings do you want to see?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
with and without
edler/hamhuis
ehrhoff/ballard
bieksa/obrien
mitchell/hamuis
ballard/edler
ehrhoff/obrien
salo coming back is an issue too, with him in the mix i could see bieksa getting scratched for stretches when he’s playing his too cool for school lackadaisical style. obrien (or bieksa) as a 7th dman is a gross waste of defensive talent and salary cap, so i expect that they’ll keep salo out as long as possible to make sure he’s fully healthy and maximize his ltir benefit.
THIS WAS THE BEST ROSTERBATION SESSSION EVER!!!
(it was so good, i added extra letters)
A Canadian American revolution
by My Landed Immigrant status just expired! on Aug 16, 2010 12:38 PM PDT reply actions
Mitchell, Yes. Bieksa, No.
German beer, Yes, American beer, No.
Bear wrestling, Yes. “Twilight” film screening, No.
Christina Hendricks of “Mad Men”, Yes. Renee Zellwigger, No.
Train trip across Australia, Yes. Greyhound bus to East Detroit, No.
Babych’s Mustache, Yes. Kane’s Playoff Mullet, No.
by Sneps-ish on Aug 16, 2010 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
But what about the Greyhound bus to Detroit or a night locked in a room with Ms. Zellwigger?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I love
Christina Hendricks.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Crap
This was supposed to be a reply. Ugh.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
I want to say neither
I am thinking about next year.
Hamhuis – Edler
Ehrhoff – Ballard
Oberg-Connaughton-Sauve (some combination of the 3)
So if Willie wants to sign for one year then sure let’s do it. But I wouldn’t mind if this time next year our D doesn’t have any of Mitchell, Salo and Bieksa. This would leave us a lot of cap room.
For example….
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($2.500m)
Mason Raymond ($2.550m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
Jordan Schroeder ($1.025m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.666m)
Victor Oreskovich ($0.575m) / Rick Rypien ($0.550m) / Jeff Tambellini ($0.500m)
Tanner Glass ($0.625m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($3.100m)
Yann Sauve ($0.670m) / Evan Oberg ($1.562m)
Kevin Connauton ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) /Cory Schneider ($0.900m)
CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $90,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $56,198,333; BONUSES: $2,372,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $5,574,167
A nice mix of youth and vets. Tonnes of talent and if the cap goes up a million or two we have 6 or 7 million in cap room to make a run at a UFA or RFA that can put this group over the top.
Potential UFA or RFAs that we could go after?
Shea Weber, Alex Semin, Patrice Bergeron, Brad Richards, Zdeno Chara, Jovo Cop, Joe Thornton, Gagne, Kaberle, Seabrook, Bogosian, Turris Stamkos, Doughty and more.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 16, 2010 5:41 PM PDT reply actions
Give
me Seabs or Bergie and Im happy.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Guarantee that the following will be signed before July 1 or, as RFAs, will not be obtainable at any cost:
Weber
Bergeron
Seabrook
Bogosian
Turris
Stamkos
Doughty
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions
You always want to be careful
making guarantees. It’s obviously a long shot that any of those names will be available. But I was just trying to highligh just how much talent might be available next summer and why it’s important to have some cap room.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
You always want to be careful making guarantees.
I know I know, thanks dad. But I’ll make a bet now with anyone that none of those players I mentioned is on a different team after this season.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Even Kyle Turris?
You are that sure he will still be a Yote?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
I should correct myself… I guarantee that none of them will be signed away. If they are traded by their current team for whatever reason they have to trade them, maybe. But none of them will be gone by poaching and RFA or signing a UFA.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
What would you like to wager?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
You a scotch drinker?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I dabble…. but mostly I’m not a gambler. I never wager more than bragging rights.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
OK but if there is only bragging rights on the line
there is a good chance I will forget about this wager. So you will have to remind me.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
If you look at the list, a lot of those players are on teams that either don’t spend a lot, or have rather shaky finances.
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
Nashville protecting one their players?? Not Nashville! They have a nasty self-imposed cap.
Nucks Misconduct
"Here goes nothin'" - Han Solo
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I cannot fathom Weber leaving Nashville unless Weber actively wants to leave Nashville.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but I’m just saying you never know with Nashville. Look at their salaries. Think they’re going to give him $6 million? They are only missing a couple minor spots in their roster and have only spent $44 million.
Nucks Misconduct
"Here goes nothin'" - Han Solo
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
He should
get around 7 mill. If they don’t keep them Poile is a fucking idiot. But Poile is a very smart man so he will keep him.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Poile
also has Blum, Franson, and Ellis to go along with Parent and Suter. If he was offered a couple of high picks and a couple of good prospects in a sign and trade scenario who is to say he wouldn’t do it?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
What Beantown
said.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
There isn’t a way or a how that Shea Weber does not retire a Nashville Predator. The ownership came out and said a couple of weeks ago that Weber and Suter would be re-signed, period. No ifs, ands, ors, or buts.
In a theoretical world where he does get put on the market, Weber’s value is astronomically high. I can’t even think of a package from Vancouver that would entice me to say yes.
Lastly, our budget problems are on the way out the door – the 27% shares in the team that have been held up due to some bankruptcy issues are ready to be sold again, meaning Poile will have the ability to spend to the cap very soon.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
by Chris Burton on Aug 17, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
That is a laughable
statement that isn’t worth arguing against cause there is NO WAY you can back that up.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
If its that bad, then, surely you can provide more of an intelligent debate against it than simply degrading my statement.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
by Chris Burton on Aug 17, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Well anyone can see the folly
in claiming a 25 year old D man will finish his career and retire with one team. How many players actually play for one team their entire career? I mean I could say that there are no ways or hows that Ryan Kesler doesn’t cure cancer as a Canuck and it’s about as reasonable a statement. You have no idea what will happen in 5, 10, 15 years. Neither do I. But I am not claiming that Weber is going to go anywhere or will stay there forever. I am simply saying that there is always a chance a player could be moved.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
And there’s also a chance Sidney Crosby at the end of his current deal will sign a 10 year deal with Washington.
His point was Weber as a Predator for life is as sure as you can get, or in that group of pretty-much-certainties. They wouldn’t have made him captain if there were any doubt.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
*any reasonable doubt
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
He said
There isn’t a way or a how that Shea Weber does not retire a Nashville Predator.
As sure as you can get? That’s not what he said. If that’s what he meant? Then he did a piss poor job making his point. Bourque, Blake, Pronger, Chara etc etc etc. Elite D men do change teams. What makes Weber different? He isn’t a home town kid. If you want to argue it’s likely he will stay there his whole career I could accept that. And I do think it is likely he stays there. But it’s far from a guarantee. But Burton was dealing in absolutes. And there is no way he can back that up.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s called hyperbole? He was speaking in absolutes just to show how unlikely he thought it was.
SkinnyFish does the exact same thing all the time.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry that doesn't work
you can’t make a ridiculous statement like that and then claim you really meant something else and dress it up as hyperbole. It doesn’t work. If the guy was trying to make a point about Weber being highly unlikely to leave he could have just said that. But he didn’t. he could have used hyperbole to make that point. But he didn’t. Cause that wasn’t his point. I have read other stuff he has written about Weber. He actually thinks there is no way Weber will ever leave. And we all know that only a Sith deals in absolutes.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Firstly, it’s not ridiculous. Nashville management said they would get the deals done—that’s an absolute too.
Secondly, he’s not an idiot. He knows there’s a slim chance of anything happening. We all do. He’s even expressed fear that a Weber extension might not get done on Japers’ Rink.
Thirdly, this discussion is kind of pointless. It’d be quite amazing—I won’t quite say a miracle—if Weber ends up switching teams.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah well re-signing someone
to a contract doesn’t mean that person will retire a Predator. Especially when the person in question is only 25 and the deal isn’t done yet.
To make an absolute claim that any player who is 25 will retire with their current team is ridiculous.
I already said that Weber leaving Nashville seems highly unlikely at this point in time. If you missed that you may want to re-read this thread. My point is simply that it is ludicrous to suggest anyone will retire with their current team when they are as early in a career as Weber is. If you can’t understand that point please don’t respond to this comment case there is no where else for this discussion to go.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
red army line has it right. The tool is called hyperbole – its used to convey the impossibility of the situation.
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by Chris Burton on Aug 17, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
First of all there is nothing
impossible about Shea Weber one day leaving Nashville.
Secondly, hyperbole requires obvious and intentional exaggeration. You didn’t get that part done. Hyperbole would be something along the lines of “Shea Weber will be in Nashville longer than the Cumberland River.”
“There isn’t a way or a how that Shea Weber does not retire a Nashville Predator.” This statement is not hyperbole. Do you see the difference?
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Seems
like semantics.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Beantown
and CC have decided.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
We don’t have to make everything so complicated. There is basically zero chance that Shea Weber is not a Predator for the next ten or more years. That’s all I’m trying to say. No need for definition debates and semantics, really.
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by Chris Burton on Aug 17, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Well if that is what you meant
then you should say that. IMO, it’s still wrong. But at least say what you really mean. I would say there is about a 85-90% chance Weber stays in Nashville for the next 5-10 years. That’s more realistic.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
85%-90% chance
How do you back up deciding upon such a range? Ridiculous!
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
@Chris: thanks for the Nashville economic clarification. That’s amazing that they are finally more committal.
Hamhuis never got that. Do you think he’s not as good as his new contract suggests?
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by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
sorry, I just got your answer below this…thnx
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by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
it’s terrifying to think of what Poile might do if he’s ever allowed to spend to the cap.
by Passive Voice on Aug 18, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I ran the data
of how often a player stays in our city his whole career. Then I ran numbers on the turnover of Nashville’s roster since they have been in the league. I then looked into elite D men and the frequency that they change teams. I crunched those numbers and it came out at 86.798345028455%
So 85-90 felt right.
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by Section 312 on Aug 18, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
i bet vegas would be happy to do business with you…
by Passive Voice on Aug 18, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah from what I recall the thinking behind letting Hamhuis leave was that, though he was generally well regarded throughout the team and the fan community, they knew they couldn’t afford to keep him and Weber, and Weber was the obvious choice.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
He was well regarded, no doubt, but he wanted too much money for what he was giving us.
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by Chris Burton on Aug 17, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t be so sure on Bergeron. Boston already has Savard, Krejci, and now Seguin down the middle. Bergeron is a point per game forward when given proper TOI, and he knows that, so he could be too expensive for them.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I think they will dump Savard before Bergeron. Bergeron is younger and more of a complete player.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
More complete?
Better defensively and much worse offensively isn’t more complete. It’s just different.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, Savard has that kind of long contract and he’s still an elite assist man. I don’t see a team that will take on such an old player who now has a concussion history, though.
Bergeron is very good offensively too. He’s just been the checking line center for a couple of years. Before that he scored at a point per game, fewer assists but more goals than Savard, which isn’t too shabby.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Bergeron was never point a game
I think if memory serves he has never had more than 72 or 73 points in a season. He is a good player but no where near as good offensively as Savard.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Off the top of my head he had concussion issues which seem to be behind him. I’ll check it out.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay, you're right
I thought he’d been missing more games.
So he isn’t point per game, but a 70 point guy isn’t half bad.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
No not at all
but not in the same class as Savard offensively.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Is Savard really that great? I mean, he’s an elite passer, but I see his best season at this point at 25 goals 65 assists, and probably 20-60 is more realistic.
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by red army line on Aug 17, 2010 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
He has had 2 season
at close to 100 points. Another at 88. He has been hurt lately but still put up reasonable numbers last year all things considered. With an elite scorer on his wing the guy is still capable of being a top assist guy. 20-70 is probably what he has left in the tank. Still better than Bergeron is capable of.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Savard though is 35 or 36 or something. I don’t think he can put up big numbers like that anymore. He’s not a dominant two way player like Sakic was when he put up 100 points as a 36 year old.
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by red army line on Aug 18, 2010 3:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Is Toews a more complete player than Savard? Because Toews’ two best seasons offensively were not as good as Bergeron’s two best seasons.
A ‘complete’ player, by my definition is, is one who is an excellent choice for any major role – offensive, defensive, PP, PK. That applies to players like Bergeron, Toews, Richards, Kesler, Datsuk, Zetterberg, etc. That was my point. What does a complete player mean to you?
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, there are some guys that play defense by holding onto the puck forever (that’s why Alexander Semin is such a fantastic penalty killer). A younger Savard might have been able to do the same thing, but as he gets older he’ll have to rely on smarts and positioning much more. I’m not convinced his defense then will hold up.
SO in short, Savard isn’t complete.
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by red army line on Aug 18, 2010 3:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Complete means
to me that they are great at offense and defense. Bergeron doesn’t get into that first category.
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by Section 312 on Aug 18, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok, so neither does Toews. Who does? Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Richards? Possibly Kesler?
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 18, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Toews is close
Toews is only 22 and is a dynamic offensive player. His offensive stats may not be great but his ability is. I am not basing my opinion on stats alone. I mean how many complete hockey players do you think are?
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by Section 312 on Aug 18, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Well “ability is there” without stats being there is just another way of saying potential, and I agree. And I agree, there aren’t many complete players. But what I said was that Bergeron was a younger and more complete player than Savard, and I stand by that. And because he’s younger, he has more potential, just like Toews.
Let’s compare.
Bergeron has just turned 25, and began in the league when he was 18. In six seasons in the NHL, he has played 376 games and scored 280 points.
Savard is 33. He began in the league when he turned 20. In his first 6 seasons in the NHL, Savard played the exact same amount of games – 376 – but only scored 252 points.
Bergeron is coming off a season where he scored 52 points in 73 games — at age 24 — while Savard is coming off a season where he scored 33 points in 41 games — at age 32.
So I stand by all my points. Bergeron is younger, has similar potential that Savard had at that age offensively, but is also a more rounded (aka more complete) player. Berg’s also 6’2 while Savard is 5’10.
Add all that together, and I definitely see why Bruins management would choose to keep Bergeron over Savard should it come down to that.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 18, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
The only problem there is that they just signed Savard to an extension which should see him retire as a Bruin.
If I were them, I’d pick Bergeron too.
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by Karina on Aug 18, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Just because Bergeron
had more points in his first 300 games doesn’t mean he has more offensive potential. I have seen Bergeron play a tonne. He will be lucky to be a point a game player. And to be honest it won’t be more than a year before Seguin is a better player. Bergeron is one of the most overrated players in the league.
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by Section 312 on Aug 18, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
you’re drunk on this one, section. Bergeron is fucking fantastic. I’m not convinced he shouldn’t have won the Selke last year.
by Passive Voice on Aug 18, 2010 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions
How many of his games
did you watch? I saw upwards of 25-30 Bruins games last year that Bergeron played in.
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by Section 312 on Aug 18, 2010 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
nowhere near that many, but i don’t trust my eyes anyway. i trust Steve Yzerman’s somewhat more, and I trust the numbers most of all.
by Passive Voice on Aug 18, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
All that Yzerman
picking him for Canada shows is that Crosby likes playing with him and he is good defensively. Neither of those I will debate.
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by Section 312 on Aug 19, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
I watched him play a good amount while I was in Boston (he was injured half the time I lived there, mind you). I was very impressed with what I saw.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 18, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
from what I’ve seen of him in the last while I am unimpressed. He couldn’t even stay on Team Canada’s top line. He strikes me as a player who will continually be riddled with injuries and not reach his expectations
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by Sean Zandberg on Aug 18, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh no, he made team canada but wasn’t good enough for the top line? Oh he’s so unimpressive!
The injured point, and the impact it will have on his development, is completely fair. But just speculation.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 19, 2010 6:42 AM PDT up reply actions
It's really simple...
Trade Bieksa, Jettison Hordichuk and AHLberts. Re-sign Mitchell. Keep SOB and Rome. Trade SOB when Salo is ready to return. The only thing is that if Salo goes down AGAIN, Rome is all that’s left to replace him.
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by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 16, 2010 5:41 PM PDT reply actions
I’m thinking along those lines too or that Salo hangs up his skates and calls it a career
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by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
…or comes back with an inspirational last run after rehab…give the teflon balls one more chance…
I do wonder if GMMG has him penciled into his Cap puzzle as anything other than that.
I doubt it. Salo has a NTC. Gillis doesn’t have a lot of choices in that regard
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by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Huh? I said he comes back with the Canucks for the second half.
He is in his last year right?
Ohhh…I see, you thought I meant the Caps…no.
With the way the Cap is calculated on a daily basis, I think he is making considerations with Gilman that only include Salo at around the half way point of the season…maybe even later depending on “how he heals”…
We’ll make the playoffs…and then have a guy like Salo come back and only have to move a Mil or two to get him in? That’s doable right?
and then have a guy like Salo come back and only have to move a Mil or two to get him in? That’s doable right?
I suppose. But then you move that cap hit and then Salo gets bit by a mosquito, gets the West Nile Virus and then he’s back on the IR for 3 months. That’s why I want him to just go away
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by Sean Zandberg on Aug 18, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m also thinking that with that kind of D-depth (keeping Mitchell), you can reduce minutes for a lot of these guys. If you can roll six defensemen with confidence, you can protect Salo and Mitchell a lot more than you otherwise might. That’s a nice thing. The more I look at these possibilities, the more I think the one thing standing between these Nucks and a deep playoff run is a healthy, not-over-tired team come spring. It kind of comes back to the Luongo talk from last week.
Keep Mitchell, sell Bieksa for some young third- or fourth-line help and save some dollars. Then you’ve got Hammer/Ballard/Mitchell/Edler/Ehrhoff/SOB/Salo/Rome/Alberts. That looks pretty sweet and you know Edler’s only getting better. With Mitchell a question and Salo a Salo, you want to run at least eight D. I’m not sold on Alberts, but I want his size available to me. SOB, too.
Burkey was going on about Toronto having the best 1 through 6 on the blueline, but I’d be happy to run the above against what the Laughs can offer…
Alberts would have to go as well.
But he’s not worth keeping around if it means losing Mitchell.
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by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 16, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd run
the Vancouver Giants against the best of the Leafs.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I would take Chicago's
top 8 over Toronto’s any day of the week. Even if only the top 4 are NHL quality they are better than anything the Leafs can offer. Same with our top 7.
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by Section 312 on Aug 17, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Hard to argue with a team that has two Olympians from Team Canada, one of which is the current Norris Trophy winner on it.
Not sure about the Canucks’ though.
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by Karina on Aug 17, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
1 through 8, actually. And considering how few teams have 8 NHL defensemen… it’s hard to argue.
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by Karina on Aug 17, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it just me or shouldn’t we be expecting some of our depth (as in covering for injuries) to be coming from prospects? I feel like demanding these young guys get given a solid chance to make and stay in the team. I’d rather see them given the chance and some time to grow in the big league than giving alberts another go.
Exactly.
But there’s not much there. Oberg could probably fill a third pairing role. But the other two defensive prospects worth anything (Ellington and Sauve) are probably still at least a year or two away.
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by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 16, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
sportsnetmurph
WMitchell has worked out for the Canucks, Sharks and Kings. Testing went very well. No conf on LA offer, WM now expected to visit Wash
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Well it's a good sign that the Canucks are still in it.
And hopefully Kaberle remaining a Leaf will increase Bieksa’s value. I’m not expecting anything more than a 3rd or 4th round pick and a middling prospect, but at least there should be more teams interested.
That’s really the only move that needs to happen to fit Mitchell in right now.
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by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 16, 2010 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Alberts/SOB
I just cried into my beer.
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I didn’t expect Bieksa to get those 27 votes he did on this poll. The only thing stopping me from saying I want Willie back regardless is the cap situation – I’m terrible with the cap. Are we over the cap right now if Salo misses the first two months as expected? Hamhuis/Mitchell brings a tear to my eye.
I also agree with the sentiment that we could/should/need to get rid of Juice + Alberts as fast as possible. Whether or not we’ll find a taker is another thing and will only really be resolved, I’d think, until after Willie has been signed.
Where we are relative to the cap is a matter of push a few contracts around. We have a lot of players, and the cap will only count against a maximum of 23 at one time. And I expect we will go with 22. So while all our contracts put together put us over the cap, there are I think 26 contracts in that lot.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Give
me Mitch. I’ll take Juice too if its feasible, but if it can’t be had I’d rather have Mitch than no one.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 12:41 AM PDT reply actions
Maybe I drink the Koolaid too much but I’d rather have Mitch than most of our D.
Nucks Misconduct
"Here goes nothin'" - Han Solo
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Ain't
no vitamins in that shit. Sugar, water, and Mitch.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey
Ive been thinking about this concept; what if we are simply over-valuing Mitch and undervaluing Juice, simply because we don’t have Mitch and thus want him, and we’ve already had Juice and thus don’t want him? You know what happens when a kid sees a toy, and they cry and throw a tantrum to get it, and then when you finally get it for them they stop playing with it within a week? Perhaps we’re dealing with an oversize version of that? Maybe because Mitch is one of the couple dozen free agents left, we want a piece of the pie? I could be completely wrong. Just wanted your guys’ take on it.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 11:23 AM PDT reply actions
Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 17, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Live long
and prosper.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
The reason I want Mitchell rather than Bieksa is because we have Edler and Ehrhoff, two defencemen capable of 40+ points a season. Bieksa can also put up 40+ points a season, but he does so with riskier plays and potential mental lapses. What we don’t have is a shutdown defenceman of Willie’s caliber.
Combine that with the fact that Mitchell’s contract will be much less than Bieksa’s (most likely) and it’s a slam-dunk to prefer Mitchell to Bieksa in the Canucks lineup this year.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
Fair enough.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Aug 17, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the results of the poll. Lots of Mitchell love seconded by Gillis "moving on from both. Crazy stuff.
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