To Retire Or Not Retire: Markus Naslund's #19
Usually a jersey retirement is met with applause and remembrance - and I have no doubt that Markus Naslund's night on December 11th against Tampa Bay - will be just that and more.
We've seen a number of voices, opinions or tweets present dissenting opinions as to whether Naslund deserves one of the highest honors a player can receive. Some of the voices belong to folks who wouldn't like a damn thing the franchise does anyway (Hi Edmonton!), so ignore the lot of those.
But others think it's fair to ask if such praise should be given to a player who, while he has impressive stats, didn't bring a Cup home and was often chastised as a soft and inefficient captain. Let's quickly dissect the numbers, at least broadly, and put them in a greater context and review what a jersey retirement really is.
Naslund will represent the 97th retired number, excluding the Leafs honored jerseys and the numbers put back into circulation by the Whalers and Nordiques after their respective relocation. 484 skaters & goalies have played for the Canucks since 1970 and only three have seen their numbers retired (%0.6).
Below is a list of all the players (sorted by points) who have had their number retired, dating back to Steve Yzerman in 2007 which seemed apropos considering he'll be the other retired #19 in the house on December 11th. Goalies have been excluded and the * means they served a team captain on one of their teams. The Stanley Cup count doesn't factor in Cups won as a coach or scout. Also note I wanted to include team records but it was difficult to be 100% certain of every possible team record an individual may have so it was removed.
Let's concede this is a small sample and many were from a different era of hockey. Of the 21 respectable individuals (or 22 if you count Messier), Naslund is 16th in games played, 8th in goals, 13th in assists and 11th in points. He joins roughly 60% of the sample who have no NHL records, the 32% who aren't in the hall of fame and the 32% who never won a Cup. So his numbers - obviously goals & points - cast him well with the others but nothing screams he's a no brainer pick either.
But there's no hard and fast requirements here. Retiring a number has no set template; it's what the team has defined as player value worthy of grand acknowledgment. Take Bob Gainey who had four consecutive Selke trophies along with his five Cups and he played every NHL second with Montreal. In other words, a slam dunk from all angles. Other times it's about what that player did more for the franchise: Keith Magnuson didn't have the pedigree of others but served as Chicago's captain, played every game with the Hawks and died suddenly in a car accident. Similarly, Numminen was one of the best Europeans to ever play, had that heart scare and was a mainstay for the Jets when they became the Coyotes. Neither Magnuson or Numminen won a Cup. Some players are a mix of on and off ice accomplishments: Adam Graves played in more games but was far off Naslund's totals, but also had his career year in the Rangers clutch 1994 SC win and has done considerable off-ice work for the organization and remains their employee even today (Prospect Development and Community Relations).
It's completely Vancouver's right to look at their all-time leader in points, who spent 12 of his 15 seasons at GM Place Rogers Arena (including seven as captain) and was their nightly scoring threat and give him the top honors they can. He was the face of the franchise who helped steer it away from the dark days of the late 90's back to a team worth watching and, more importantly, spending money on. Naslund's community worked is almost always understated. He shouldered the brunt of criticism (as he should) all the while earning his way to the Pearson, a Hart trophy nomination, 5 All Star appearances and 345 goals for the Orca (49 of them game winners).
In a pure hockey sense, is he in the same category as a Yzerman, Anderson or Robitaille? No. Yet it doesn't erase his value to the organization either and that's what matters. I commented earlier it's a Catch 22: if you retire the jersey, it's in line with the already debatable choices (though not with the Vancouver faithful) to put Linden and Smyl up; if not you ignore the contributions of one of the most skilled players who impacted the franchise and helped the community.
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isn’t there a 3rd option for those of us who don’t want to give a rat’s ass?
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
I usually do give a throw away option, but figured most people fell into one camp here.
Your third party vote is duly noted ;)
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jul 8, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
okay. but just for the heck of it, i’ll explain my position.
i was much too young to see much of naslund. i really only saw the last few years of his time year. therefore, i didn’t get to see his prime. also, i’m also not that big on keeping up on what charitable actions people do. therefore, i don’t have much to say on the matter.
i’ve heard the stories about linden and smyl, and they are definitely worthy of their numbers being retired. but, as for naslund, i’m not sure if i can say the same.
there’s my 2 cents (or should i make that 20?). and seeing how much the rest of you have been arguing, i’m now thoroughly avoiding the topic once again.
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
Sorry but charitable work
has, or at least it shouldn’t, nothing to do with a player getting his number retired. It’s not an honor bestowed cause a guy is a totally awesome dude. It’s supposed to be reserved for people who are totally awesome hockey players.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
well, the way i see it in linden’s case was that he was also a nice guy off the ice, which helps people like him.
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
I guess
but to me it shouldn’t matter one bit what kind of guy a player was or is. If we won 5 cups with the best player in the league on our team and he was a prick I would be very very happy to retire that guys number. Being an average player and a great person shouldn’t get your jersey retired.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
It’s supposed to be reserved for people who are totally awesome hockey players.
Supposed to be perhaps, but it isn’t. It’s about value to the organization and how mgmt defines it. Otherwise GM Place Rogers Arena would have nothing up there by divisional banners.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jul 8, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
And that's the way it should be
the rafters should be empty until there is a player who deserves to be up there. We haven’t had one yet but the Canucks are always desperate to make it seem like we have a great history. Like this 40 years thing. 40 years of sucking shouldn’t be celebrated.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Whereas I greatly appreciate the work that the players do in the community and it’s a big part of why I’m a Canucks fan. And what’s wrong with celebrating the Canucks’ history? Even though it’s not perfect, it’s worth remembering and celebrating.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
Celebrating it is fine
if it was celebrating what the franchise actually is rather than what they wish it was.
I appreciate the work the players do in the community and I am glad we are a leader in the NHL in terms of community involvement. But that has nothing to do with how good a player was on the ice. Which is all that matters in terms of number retiring and HOF voting in my opinion.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
And I disagree. When it comes to retiring numbers, at least to the Canucks, part of the debate is their contribution to the community.
Huzzah for disagreeing!
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
I don't mind disagreeing
as long as you know I am right!!! ;-)
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
I agree, but the trend has already been set. Blame the owners if anyone.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jul 8, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I feel differently
I think the hockey team is very much a part of the community, especially in Canada. The retiring of a jersey is something that happens for one team and their fans: it’s not league wide, it’s not nomination to the hall of fame. As such, it is up to them to decide with whom the honour should lie.
I am confused about the wording of this poll.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinhathaway/ - Here B Photos
oh yeah, that is confusing. didn’t notice that before.
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
Yes, that doesn’t really seem to be a yes or no question.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
Sorry, my bad. Can you tell I started this last night and finished it this morning?
Refresh, should be better now.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jul 8, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
it is better now.
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
I still want to go!!!
There's nothing quite like the sound of a frozen puck hitting the glass. It makes me happy.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community.
by Cassie McClellan on Jul 8, 2010 2:56 PM PDT reply actions
That at least
25% of Canuck fans are idiots.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Or that +70% of people recognize a timid, annoying quitter as someone who should be celebrated.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not as ragey as some people are about it, but you’re right, and he also had some stellar numbers and seasons.
I’m on the “no” side and I will not celebrate his career, but I won’t protest his recognition either. The way I look at it, he doesn’t have the heart of Linden or Smyl, his numbers aren’t quite good enough for immediate jersey retirement, and the tail end of his career fiercely diminished memories of his best years.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinhathaway/ - Here B Photos
I'm not going to bother getting into this with you
since you clearly have something against Naslund that is emotional rather than rational.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
bullseye
I usually find Sean so agreeable, but this is definitely his sore spot. Naslund was the shining star of what was at the time a terrible team. When Bertuzzi left, his linemate was Matt Cooke (a 3rd line player). His goalie was Cloutier.
Other than Ohlund, Naslund was the only reason the Canucks weren’t pure garbage during this period.
He was a better captain than Luongo and he lead his team by example, not just in the dressing room. He had more of the Sedin demeanor than the Kesler style emotion, but does that mean he was a bad captain?
What I’m saying isn’t rational? Give me a break. On the ice, Naslund was timid. He complained about how the team was coached in the end. Remember him in scrums? Yeah, Mr. Passive. Is it “personal”? Of course it is! I invested my time watching someone who I really did not like being captain. I wanted a warrior. Naslund was not a warrior. He was a beautifully skilled player but not someone you want to follow into battle.
As a person I’m sure he’s a terrific guy.
Don’t get all snooty. You called 25% of Canucks fans idiots.
Or am I being irrational again?
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
This seems more like it’s between you and Section, but let me add this:
In the WCE days, Bertuzzi was the Messier and Naslund was the Gretzky. Bertuzzi was the one who battled the players in front, while Naslund found open ice and picked the corners.
Only tough-guy players should have their number in the rafters?
The WCE line was successful because of speed and skill. They were very dangerous on the rush. With AV coming in as coach and the emergence of the young Sedins, Naslund’s line was coached into a cycle game which did not match his style of play. This affected his point production and therefore his enjoyment of the game.
He loved playing for the Canucks, but needed to be on an aggressive speed line with some other skilled players and the Canucks did not have that at the time.
Sure, the ending was a little sour, but does that negate his 12 solid years in Vancouver?
he couldn’t even make it on the Sedin line! Can you remember how often he shot the puck right into the goalies’ bread basket in the latter years?
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah. He was skilled for sure but he was an elite player only when he had Bertuzzi and Morrison. When the WCE ceased to exist so did Naslund’s elite status. I totally agree with Sean about him lacking the warrior mentality. He seemed to just get by which isn’t a bad thing for a hockey player but I don’t think that makes a good captain, imo. His time here was kinda ‘meh’. When Linden played his last game you felt like we were losing a Canuck. When Naslund played his last game here, I felt kinda glad to be rid of the 6.25 million.
Naslund's time was "meh"?
He won the Lester and had a couple of elite scoring seasons. Remember that game against Ottawa where he ragged the puck all around their zone before scoring. The guy was elite in every sense of the word when he was here. Don’t let a declining ability level in his last couple years blight your memory of a very good player.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Still when the guy leaves, you should feel something some kind of loss. When he left, it felt like we gained a lot.
When the WCE was priming it up, I was a big fan of Naslund, I won’t lie. I was a big fan of all 3.
Yeah, marcness, that salary was a huge issue to wasn’t it?
Good lord
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
when he left we signed pavol fucking demitra to replace him. the only thing that increased was my frustration level and blood pressure.
I hear ya on that one. What the fuck was Gillis thinking? Ex-client, yeah..maybe he was just trying to build a rep for being able to draw star power here? It’s not like UFA’s were lining up to sign here
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 9, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Shooting the puck into the goalies instead of past them in his later years. That scoring touch left him, but he kept his value as a grinder after it did.
Linden became a grinder in his latter years too, but he was still clutch. Remember the shootouts? Naslund was nowhere as good as Linden was, even in Linden’s last year.
by nucklinBadger on Jul 8, 2010 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions
And a 4th liner the coach didn’t want to use, at that. The playoff numbers say something to me, too:
Linden: 124 games, 99 points, 5 game winners.
Naslund: 52 games, 36 points, 1 game winner.
Providing more of those high-pressure moments may certainly sway people to view Linden in a brighter light than Naslund. If he had been on a team that made the playoffs more frequently, there may be no arguing about both players being honoured.
25%
It’s not 25% of Canuck fans. I am 100% certain these results are being skewed by non-fans.
As far as I can tell, the people who post on this board are overwhelmingly in support of the move.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
says who?
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
Jevant, apparently
It’s not 25% of Canuck fans. I am 100% certain these results are being skewed by non-fans.
one Calgary troll
Voted no and would suggest the third way – a Naslund honor night – with gifts and highlights and hanging his number up on a wall – but not full retirement. Calgary did something similar with Jim Peplinski.
so, kinda like that “Ring of Honour” thing they’re doing for Kurtenbach and others?
Nucks Misconduct contributor (and occasional peacekeeper), also on Twitter.
Have patience, my darlings. It's only the beginning of July, Mike Gillis has all summer.....
I’d be fine with this idea, but then Linden looks silly being retired considering Naslund broke many of his records.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jul 9, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, in the end, retiring Naslund is the only way to go unless they draw the line starting right now…but then again, the Canucks have not had an illustrious past.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 9, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
In my view, being captain for 8 years must count for something. Obviously, management saw in him a capable leader, otherwise the “C” wouldn’t have lasted that long. It is one thing to make a mistake and correct it after a year or two, but it’s hard to believe that they made a mistake almost a whole decade, year after year.
In his prime, Markus was a great player, and he gave the team all he had. I wish he had some more, but nobody is perfect. So, I say, give him the number.
I agree with the poster who said that a team should celebrate what it is, and not what it could have should have would have been.
Los Angeles, CA
I voted no
He was a really good player who did a lot of good things, but I don’t think no Canuck should ever be allowed to wear #19 because of it and I think the organisation should hold itself to a higher standard.
I don’t think this will motivate anyone to be honest. One day you can have your number retired and people can debate the merits of it!
Adam Graves’ was more of a favour to Leetch to get him agree to have his number retired, because he had been estranged from the Rags when they traded him to Toronto. I think everyone at the time knew what it was.
I didn’t know that about Graves but, if true, speaks even more to the fact that it’s whatever the organization wants. If retiring jerseys are now hat tips to great players, that’s an entirely new strain of thought.
An aside: can you imagine retiring one Sedin and not the other?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jul 9, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
The basis of me voting no is that if you’re going to retire a number I rather you retire Linden’s 16 then Naslund’s 19, I hold Linden with much more esteem than Naslund (Not that I hate him).
They already retired Linden's
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
no worries :)
Linden’s jersey number 16 was retired by the Canucks on December 17, 2008, the second number retired by the team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Linden
by SteveNux on Jul 8, 2010 4:41 PM PDT reply actions
Also
Naslund was a much better hockey player than Linden (although I liked them both). Linden did have a better team surrounding him in his heyday and he’s Canadian. Maybe that’s why people like him more.
That's a big one to miss
I remember it vividly because my sister got to go to the game. Thanks to me. I used to date a girl who works for the Nucks so she told my sister what day was most likely to be Linden day before tickets had even gone on sale for that season and my sister was able to get tickets.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Now it all makes sense, 2008-2009 was a really tough year for me, and I honestly didn’t pay much attention to the Canucks until near playoff time.
My mom passed away from Cancer in August, and the few months after that have been a blur, I honestly don’t remember Linden’s Jersey being retired, but yeah thanks for catching me up and excuse my dumb comment.
No worries
those are definitely extenuating circumstances. My condolences.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
no worries :)
Linden’s jersey number 16 was retired by the Canucks on December 17, 2008, the second number retired by the team.
Lets just all agree that Bure
is the best and most talented player the Canucks have ever had and his number should be retired.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
I don’t disagree, but the way Bure left, left such a sour taste in my mouth and I don’t think that should be rewarded.
Before you ask, what number should the Canucks retire then? I don’t know, and I don’t know if there is anyone out there I would deem worthy of that honour
Retire the number 10
Bure is hands down the most talented player the Canucks have ever had. He was the best goal scorer in the league when he was here and he was the most exciting and electrifying player we’ve ever seen in Canuck colours. I don’t really care about how he left to be honest. I don’t hold grudges about stuff like that. Life is WAY too short to play somewhere where you aren’t happy so I have no problem with players leaving no matter how they go about it.
How many 60 goal seasons have we seen? 2 and Bure had them both. 50 goal seasons? 4 if I am not mistaken and Bure had 3 of them.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
The Classic Canuck
clip of the week on this very website is about Bure. Check it out. Unreal how good he was.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Linden's retirement
I actually flew from New York (where I live) to Vancouver just to see Linden get his jersey retired. Totally worth it, no matter how insane the trip was.
Would I do the same for Naslund? No, not at all
Stan Smyl
Having not been around for the Stan Smyl era, what were the pros and cons of his number being retired?
Was it a lock like Linden’s was, or did it merit the same debate that Naslund is getting?
If he was a lock and Linden was a lock
then so is Naslund. That’s the bottom line. Players can be great and deserve accolades even if you think they were soft Sean.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
ok ok I’ll be serious. Yeah, if you retire Smyl and Linden how can you not retire Naslund? But whenever I look up and see his jersey up there I’ll always have the same opinion of him. It will be a timid yet skilled captain next to 2 warrior captains who bled for this team. Who did everything in their power to get the Canucks to the Stanley Cup Finals. Warriors.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I will take good players
over average players who are “warriors” any day of the week. It was pretty impressive the way Naslund overcame that devastating leg injury though wasn’t it?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
and I’ll take a Steamer or Linden over Naslund any day of the week
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
BTW
the Kurtenbloggers give the Naslund jersey retirement a “nay” and a “marginal yay”.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Good players over average players?
Sorry Section, I will gladly disagree with you on two things. One from on-ice performance perspective, Naslund does not measure up to the standard we had to retire previous jerseys, and two, that Linden is an average player who are “warriors” any day of the week.
Naslund is a good player was always close, but he couldn’t close deals. Close = not good enough. Linden is a great player who led by example, bled for us, his country and that’s why he his beloved in Vancouver.
Case in point: ‘94 run, Linden was clutch, clutch in leading our 3-1 series deficit comebacks, clutch with two goals in Game 7 (where were you Bure? Oh nice penalty shot miss in Game 4 by the way). Naslund, where were you against the Flames? Or the Wild? Or any of the series? He couldn’t win a series.
Case in point 2: Olympics. If anyone remembers, it was Linden who scored the game-tying goal in 1998. Not Lindros, not Gretz or whomever, it was our Linden when all the other “best” players Canada had to offer failed. Naslund, he was part of the elite team that lost to Belarus in 2002. Really, we retired the guy who was mocked on his home-town paper’s front page with mock-jail-prints?
Case in point 3: I will let the Sedins infer how great Naslund’s influence was. Sedins had played with him since their rookie years, then had a chance to play with Sundin at the 2006 Olympics when Sweden won gold, and again with Mats last year. What did they say? They said playing with him day in day out was an eye-opener, that it opened their eyes to see the dedication and professionalism required to be great players. Really? If that’s the case, I would assume they couldn’t learn this lesson from Naslund during his… seven years as captain?
Anyhow, it’s moot point now, management has decided to retire 19. But I’d agree with Sean, while I am happy for Naslund to receive this honour, 19 does not quite measure up to Smyl’s 12 and Linden’s 16.
by nucklinBadger on Jul 8, 2010 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions
And none of those numbers should be retired
but since they are Naslund deserves the same honor. A guy who NEVER had a season where he scored a point a game, and only came close once, isn’t a great player. Unless he is a defensive specialist who also contributes. But to the best of my recollection Linden, and his career -64, wasn’t a great defensive forward. He wasn’t a liability, most of his career, but he wasn’t a Kesler either. So why was he great? Cause of one decent playoff run that failed? You ask where was Bure but you forget to mention the OT winner against the Flames or the fact he had 31 points in that run to lead all Canucks. Bure did just as much to inspire that run as Linden and Bure was doing it despite rumors, that OUR front office started and weren’t true, that he wasn’t going to play. Neither Naslund nor Linden nor Smyl were great players. They may have been great in comparison to other Canucks but not in comparison to the rest of the league and it’s great players. So be it. That is our lot as Canuck fans. If average to good NHL players like Linden and Smyl get their jerseys retired then Naslund’s makes sense too.
And to be honest the Olympic part is completely meaningless. We didn’t retire Linden’s team Canada jersey. This is a Canuck thing and international performance has ZERO to do with it.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
No.
Not “the bottom line.” A team leader has to do more than score points. Frankly, I would have less problem with Naslund’s jersey being retired if he wasn’t the captain, and we had just relied on him to score.
A jersey retirement includes what that player meant to the city they are in, and the very fact that people are divided over this retirement speaks volumes. Need examples? Bourque’s #77 is hanging up in Colorado, along with Roy’s #33. Lanny McDonald hangs in Calgary. Ken Daneyko got his jersey up in New Jersey. Bob frikkin’ Gainey in Montreal. Clarke Gillies on Long Island.
I simply don’t think Naslund inspired his team or his fans in the same way that Smyl or Linden did. If you do think numbers are what causes a jersey to be retired, well, go for it. I don’t think Naslund did enough, you’re free to feel that Linden didn’t do enough. At the end of the day, neither one of us is going to cast the deciding vote. 8)
Well here is the thing Thursday
neither of us knows anything about how good of a leader Naslund was. I have no opinion of his reign as captain because I wasn’t in the locker room. So I base my judgment on what I did see. His performance on the ice and the stats he put up. Maybe you were in the locker room a lot and know that Naslund wasn’t a good captain. But I don’t.
And you said, “A team leader has to do more than score points.” I will respond by saying this. A team leader can be a leader without yelling and ranting and raving. Look at Joe Sakic for an example. You don’t know what Naslund was like as a captain unless you played for the Canucks when he was there. So how can you judge him for something, his leadership, that you are guessing about? I am not guessing about his production or where he ranked in terms of the leagues best players in his prime.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Agreed
I will respond by saying this. A team leader can be a leader without yelling and ranting and raving. Look at Joe Sakic for an example.
There was a great story about Sakic’s “big speeches” at the hotel before games: “Okay boys, the bus leaves in ten minutes.” And that was about it.
This entire conversation is speculation, and I remain firm in my belief that a player has to inspire fans as much as the team he’s on – numbers simply aren’t enough in my book. A team that retires a number isn’t doing it “for the team”; they’re doing it for the fans, and Naslund is a divisive figure amongst those fans.
Your opinion is different than mine: that’s fine. You’re a fan, too. But when my opinion is asked, it’s going to be given.
I have no problem with your opinion
just wanted to make sure it was pointed out that questioning any players leadership ability is faulty unless you are in that locker room with them.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Sure, and I’ll point out that retiring a number by a team involves more than just that team: the fans are the ones that the presentation is for, and their opinion is considered: go over the list of players I gave you there, and you won’t find a lot of numbers that support the retirement of those jerseys; but they were retired none the less. There’s a reason for it.
Oh, and...
…you do have an opinion of Naslund’s rein as captain, and you’re expressing it here! That what the entire post is about, remember? 8)
I have an opinion
on his time here as a player and how that affects whether or not his number should be retired. But my opinion isn’t based in any way on his captaincy. Not even a little bit. I don’t think it should factor into the equation. Bure is the only player that I think we have had that is a legitimate jersey retiring candidate and he was never captain.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Fair enough
So you’re more in the “none of these should be retired yet” camp? I can see that argument, too.
And thanks for not pointing out I mis-spelled “reign”. Dang Homonyms!
I've been working on being less pedantic
and I am firmly in the none of them camp. We don’t have a great history as a franchise. We should just embrace that rather than trying to manufacture some.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Jul 10, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Pish!
Encouraging others to use the correct language isn’t pedantic; it improves communication. And given how much of it is written, I’m all in favour of that.
Retirement nights are pretty much for the fans anyway. Something to make noise about and have a happy nostalgia feeling and sell a bunch of beer and maybe some more jerseys. We haven’t had that bad a history – it just took 20 years before it got any good!
Until we win a cup
I won’t be happy with our history.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Jul 10, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Nazzy
was my favourite player for a very long time, actually since I started like the Canucks (10 years ago), so I am glad that he gets his number retired.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jul 8, 2010 5:18 PM PDT reply actions
I voted no.
I don’t agree with Naslund’s number being retired. He was the best player that we had for a long time, but did he really make his teammates around him better? As for being a captain he was too soft spoken for my liking. (And he played for the Rangers) Yes, he was a great player, and yes i will applaud when his number gets raised to the rafters. As for Bure, he WAS the best player we ever had, but the way he sat out and cried to be traded cancelled any good he had done. Florida can retire his number for all I care.
Too many people bitched about my name, so it is now.......William......HOORAY!!! :)
by My Landed Immigrant status just expired! on Jul 8, 2010 5:21 PM PDT reply actions
There may be more to the Pavel Bure hold out than we know about.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
take it for what it’s worth from Bure’s wiki page:
After the trade was completed, Bure explained in a joint-interview with the Toronto Sun and The Province that he felt he was alienated by Canucks management ever since arriving in North America from Moscow. He cited having stayed in Los Angeles for two weeks before any Canucks representative came down to see him, in addition to several bitter contract negotiations. Bure also claimed that the constant allegations of him threatening not to play during the 1994 playoff run were planted by someone within Canucks management.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Canucks fans still vilifying Bure baffles me
I didn’t get it then and I don’t get it now. The one truly great, superstar player who belongs in the same breathe with some of the all time greats and he is the one guy we don’t celebrate yet we fall all over ourselves to praise a couple of plugs. I just don’t get it.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Speaking of Warriors
Bure led the team in scoring in the cup final run of 1994 with 31 points, 6 more than Linden, despite being the target of physical intimidation every game of every round.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
it’s natural for the fanbase of a team to hate someone that refuses to play for said team.
Bure was a great player, but fans anywhere will turn on that
Why?
If he had legit reasons to not want to be here then why hate him for that? He didn’t want to play here so we moved him. No big deal. It happens all the time. I would rather have players that want to be here but I don’t hold a grudge against Bure for wanting out. Not 12 years later anyway.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Hell yeah, Section. Bure was a BEAST in the 94 run. Loved it!
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember when Tom Renney was coach? Ye gods, that was a clusterfuck. Esa Tikkanen and Russ Courtnall openly calling him “the worst coach [they’ve] ever had” – while the season was still going.
Talk about players wanting out!
The Keenan-Renney Years. Sweet Jeezuz. Personality-wise that was like going from Hitler to Gandhi.
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
To be honest, I don’t really get the point of permanently retiring a jersey number. Perhaps it’s my European mentality but it seems a bit over the top to say that no-one can ever wear that jersey again just because one player – who was probably paid handsomely for the privelage – had it for a few years.
I guess my point of view stems from the fact that in England you grow up dreaming of one day wearing a certain number that your heroes from the past wore. For example, if you had the misfortune to grow up a Man Utd fan (I’m looking at you Section 312), you probably dreamed of wearing the hallowed number 7 – the shirt of George Best, Brian Robson, Eric Cantona, David Beckham and Cristiano Ronaldo. The number – and what it represents – is bigger than any one player and is kept open to inspire future generations with the idea that some day they too could pull on that jersey.
Anyway, that’s just my two pence worth – I guess I still have a long way to go in understanding the psyche of the North American sports fan!
Don't forget Michael Owen.........
Ok well the names you mentioned are in a different class than Owen. I agree with you, other than the misfortune part, that it doesn’t make much sense to retire numbers.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Having spent time on both sides of the pond there seems to be a little bit of difference in culture. While you could name many great number 19s across the league, I find it must less often that kids grow up in Canada aspiring to be ‘the next number so and so’. They associate themselves with the players – “I want to be like Gretzky .. I want to be like Lemieux …”, not with the numbers so much. I never saw so many 99s and 66s running down my street during ball hockey.
Sure, there are those kids (me included) who adopted the number of their hockey hero … but it was more the player than the jersey. The Man Utd. 7 is a bit different – people are buying into the legacy of the number there, not so much the players that wear them. Are there any strong ‘number lines’ in Hockey? I know know enough to say. But given that only big Canuck superstar (Delorme? Nedved? Tim freaking Hunter?) to wear 19 was Naslund in 40 or so years shows how little hockey fans – and by extension, aspiring hockey stars buy into the legacy of a number. They buy into the player, not as much as the number on his back.
Well it's got nothing to do with the number
the reason the number 7 shirt is so revered at Old Trafford is because of who wore it the shirt. The players made it that way. Young United fans wanted to be Best, Cantona, Becks or Ronaldo and in the 80s EVERY United fan wanted to be Robbo. I think it’s the same thing. You love your favourite player and identify the number with the player. They just don’t retire numbers so the shirt now has a famous history while numbers over here don’t cause they get stuck in the rafters.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Let me try to reply – it’s 4am so I might start ranting rather than provide a decent opinion, haha.
What I tried to say is that the number actually mean something in soccer. A 9 is a ST – they’re synonymous. Most 5s are CBs. Many 8s play in their traditional CM position. They don’t have the same meaning in hockey when you have 99 (well 98 now) numbers. What does 19 mean? What does 12 mean? What does 16 mean? Nothing in an across the sport context.
I guess what I was trying to convey is that there is more of a number culture in soccer than in ice hockey which is why the English would never fathom a retired number. You can’t just take away a number in football. It’s different in hockey when the numbers represent the player of the time rather than a traditional mindset. The only thing that comes close to that in Hockey are goalie numbers – 1,30,31, 35 but even now we’re seeing exceptions. Put simply – you could never fathom taking away the number 7 jersey from Man Utd, but the same cannot be said in Hockey.
Speaking of #7...
That’s an awfully popular number to have retired in the NHL. There day Phil Esposito had his number retired, Bourque took off his #7 jersey to reveal his new number – #77. Esposito, and everyone else in the game, knew Bourque was going to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, and had no idea that his jersey would be the one getting retired.
That and number nine. Which is an interesting point: the number nine is retired in Calgary because it was work by Lanny McDonald. Three of his seasons there were as a point-a-game guy. Should he have had his number retired?
his moustache alone could have got his jersey retired, haha
by Sean Zandberg on Jul 8, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Whole lot of other players on that team won the cup, too.
(His moustache should have had it’s own jersey.)
3 seasons as a point a game guy and a cup
is 3 more seasons as a point a game guy and 1 more cup than Linden ever had.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Repeat as necessary
If numbers are what you use to determine who gets their jersey retired, knock yourself out.
Your probably right numbers are over rated
when do we retire Darcy Rota’s jersey?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Lanny was an all time NHL great
who had great seasons in Calgary and brought them a cup. Much more deserving than Linden. Much more. Numbers or not.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
Then why not in Toronto?
Yet a lot of McDonald’s numbers were reached with other teams. To wit: Mike Gartner’s number is retired with Washington; Dale Hunter’s is in Washington; Bourque’s (and Roy’s) in Colorado; Adam Graves’ in Manhattan.
Why stop there? Let’s retire Tikkanen and Messier! After all, they both played for Vancouver at some point, and they were great players. Huge numbers, those guys! And hey, Igor Larionov is a hall of famer, so why not? He’s even got three Stanley Cups!
I’d suggest Cam Neely, but that would be silly.
If you think numbers are enough to get a jersey retired, knock yourself out. Now shall we simply agree to disagree, or continue to be pissy about it?
I am saying Lanny
is more deserving of having his number retired by the Flamers than Linden was of having his retired by the Canucks.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Jul 11, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Great article
It really comes down to two things:
1. what youve done for the organization
Statistically, tenure, leadership, community, team success
2. what youve done for the league
statistically, tenure

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