Official: Ballard & Oreskovich Head to Vancouver For Grabner, Bernier & 1st Rounder
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 5:21 PM PDT
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You would think Florida would be weary of trading with Vancouver but, by the looks of it, they may have gotten the better deal for a change
In what became a comedic Tweet fuckfest of misadventure, the rumors started with Ballard for #25, than Ballard for Steve Bernier, Ballard for Bernier and a pick, Ballard and Oreskovich for Grabner, Bernier and the pick...and then a haunting nothing as we waited for the #25th pick only to learn the first rounder could be next year's if a number of prospects are still available at #25. For the record, all the pieces are still not official. EDIT: Gillis never got his pick so the deal is now official.
It seems Vancouver paid an awful lot for the services of Keith Ballard. The 11th pick overall by Buffalo in 2002, we'll get to know plenty about him in the coming weeks because - if nothing else - how does his $4.2 million fit into the overall cap plans? He'll be the highest paid defenseman (Bieksa is second at $3.7 million) and entrusted with either leading the corps (yikes?) or a potential replacement for Mitchell or maybe Bieksa (hooray?). Most people will simply remember this (which is fair if not downright hilarious) but here's another video we'll learn to love too. For what it's worth he did lead Florida in QUALCOMP and endured the tougher zone starts as well. Not the biggest guy, but a gritty guy who should provide Vancouver with an immediate top four blueliner, though not one of the quality (yet) of Mitchell or a Hamhuis.
Officially having the hardest name to pronounce on the team, Victor Oreskovich (two way, $575,000) is Bernier-like in that he's an "energetic" third liner. He did leave hockey all together a few years ago to finish up schooling but returned and earned himself a promotion to the Panthers for 50 games last season, earning six points with a 8:53 ATOI. No doubt about it: he's a dark horse who will have to fight to earn a bottom six role. If he does, he may end up being a better physical player than Bernier though probably not on the scoresheet unless he can improve on his "load to move from the front of the net" quality.
Good ol' Hands of Stone showed flashes of brilliance over his two years in Vancouver, but the consistency was never there and Gillis sheds the final year of his $2 million dollar deal in the process. Maybe he can turn his career around away from the limelight, otherwise the Panther faithful will soon watch plenty of open net goals be horrifically missed.
Also going south is Michael Grabner and likely the source of angst for many. Grabner showed some of his skill this season, but the prevailing thought is that Grabner and Raymond are too similar and MayRay is more vital to the team composition now. Additionally, with Hodgson and Schroeder in the pipeline Vancouver didn't need three smallish prospects (what is this anyway, Montreal?) and Grabner became the more attractive asset to move. For all we know Vigneault didn't want him either; remember it was only this year that Grabner finally made the jump to the NHL after a few bad preseasons. There are many angles we don't know yet, but clearly moving Grabner could come back to haunt the organization.
Vancouver sacrificed speed and youth for size and grit. You wanted a gamble? You got it.
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Posted this in the draft thread but...
BotchonCanucks
The conditional part of the deal is which prospect will be going from Florida to Van.
I hate this trade so fucking much. Ballard is average. And you throw in GRABNER as well?Awful.
It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties
Average but he can step in immediately and is at least similar to Bieksa and above SOB and Alberts. Bernier was going no where probably and if moving Grabner indicates we keep Raymond, then it’s worth the price. This trade could also be decent if we actually get the prospect tonight at 25, whoever the hell it is.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s the thing though, he’s similar to Bieksa and is making 4.2! That’s more than all our d men, I do like Raymond and all but Grabner has a ton of potential and was getting really close.
It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties
Bernier had tons of potential too :)
I mean it sucks losing Grabner, but if Ballard can be dependable he gives the Canucks a better chance at being a contender now (though that will have to include keeping Raymond and still being active in FA/trades).
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough. I guess I’m just not a huge Ballard fan. I think he makes too much and doesn’t give us much we don’t already have.
It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties
No I agree. We don’t know enough about Ballard yet to really love this move.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree, he’s an overpaid Alberts with more offensive upside
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 25, 2010 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions
What?
Seriously?
FWIW – I got several texts from a few friends (one a Sharks fan, one a Leafs fan) and both were immediately “awesome trade for the Canucks”.
Let’s maybe give the new guy a chance, huh? The offseason isn’t over yet.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
Come on now Sean…or are you just saying something salacious to drive comments.
Sly devil….
He is way more than an overpaid Alberts… being only -7 on a fairly bad team, when you played all 82 and played more than 20 +, on the PK and probably some PP…I don’t mind the defenseman at all.
Shit, the guy was the 11th overall pick once. 4.2 is a fair price in an escalating market for the next 4/5 years too.
Time will tell indeed. That was a steep price to pay. Admit it.
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 25, 2010 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
A slight overpayment…only if Victor O’ is not much.
Gillis sounded pretty high on him in the interview. He is a big kid who was a 2nd rounder in 04. and a Finance grad, so he must have some brains.
I’m OK with it if he is OK. If he is a bust it’s too much. If Victor becomes our Buf in front of the net…boom! Steal!
well i can agree when you put it that way :)
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 25, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Slight???
You do realize that was our only pick in the first 3 rounds of this draft?
Grabner was a 1st round pick too, so was Bernier, so we get 1 for our 3???
Victor O will be lucky to ever play in the NHL again.
A big kid? He’s 5’11, meaning he’s one of the smallest dmen in the league, and where do you slot him in on the Nucks? #5? All that for a #5 dman?
This is an awful awful trade.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Once again yman, you misread, The big kid with the brains is Victor.
Lets just say I’ll take the word of our GM over you on whether the guy makes it. Seems like he has, but was not getting a chance in Fla after an injury.
A deeper team like the Canucks, a 6-3, 215 guy that likes to set up in front of the net and is hard to move.
I’ll give him a chance.
As for Ballard, he is fearless, hits like a ton, and was 3rd in the league in bloicked shots. he is signed for 4.2 for 4/5 more years, in an escalating market for d’men.
His price is fair. he is 27 and can help the team now.
Like MG said, with Raymond ( and it is obvious they will resign him )…Grabner was redundant.
I liked his speed.
5? Come on now. That is just an idiotic thing to say.
In Fla he played 22 min plus on a bad team, and was still only a -7 while killing penalties and playing some PP.
He is, like McIntyre already figured out in the Sun, a replacement for Mitchell.
But by all means, come on back with a negative response.
But how about one with more facts and less yoata fiction.
That, and I’ll take Mason Raymond (if we sign him), over the “potential” of Michael Grabner any day.
Playing both doesn’t make sense, it seems like they are both the exact same player.
by Vancouverguy on Jun 25, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Right off the bat
with the personal insults because you disagree eh?
And I wonder how long before that gets turned around on me…
Edler, Erhoff, Salo and quite possibly Bieksa put Ballard at #5, it’s simple math.
He was the 3rd best dman on a lousy team but suddenly he’s going to dramatically improve ours??? He’s not a stud and he’s not a shut down guy, those are the areas we need, not a $4.5M depth guy that costs 2 very good assets, not when for a bit more we could get Hamhuis or Volchenkov and give up nothing to get them.
A replacement for Mitchell??? You seriously believe that?
Oreshko, a 24 year old who has played 50 NHL games, scoring 6 points, yeah, Grabner can’t crack our top 9 apparently but this guy is going to be a difference maker???
Talk about idiotic.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Where did I insult you son.
I tire of you….but I’ll make you a deal, you stop acting like such a douche to everything I say, and I’ll do the same.
I come hear to talk puck…disagree without being so mean.
I know you don’t see it in yourself, and think everything you say is infallible, when it is really just your opinion.
I admire the passion, but not the person. So, if you can ahndle being “not my best friend”, then we can have a mutual respect.
It was this attack dog mentality of yours that forced me to take a break from the threads. My girlfriend insisted.
I got to come back for the draft, and I refuse to let someone like you bully me from my opinion.
But please, just remember, both ways, it is just your opinion.
Now…go back to another calling me an idiot, I don’t care. But if you want to just talk puck, we can disagree all you want.
Just this other stuff…its why my girlfriend doesn’t like you!
;-)
OK? Can we just leave it at that?
LOL
yeah calling something I say idiotic is not the least bit insulting, and they you go on to accuse me of being a douche, mean, negative, as usual, hypocrite.
Not as if you don’t do it on purpose either, you know damn well your ludicrous defense of all things gillisgan can’t hold water so you turn it into a pissing match to deflect.
LOL, yeah I’m the one being an attack dog, you started with the insults, not me.
Are you seriously that deluded that you can sit there and accuse me of being the one who called you an idiot? You need help man.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
And as far as
your “girlfriend” goes… considering she apparently likes you… I guess that says all that needs to be about her as a judge of character…
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
whoa
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Hold on here
Bernier was a first round pick but we didn’t waste a first on him and in the end he really was a 4th round pick maybe a 3rd. So let’s back off on all the 3 1st round picks. Now Grabner he’s for sure a 1st round pick until he plays 3 years and score 20+ a year…
I am still upset we traded him but I am all for a win now given the age of the guys in their prime
And
you think Ballard is going to be that big of a difference on this team?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Not the worst trade in the world. We could’ve given up Tyler Seguin and the number 1 overall pick next year for Phil Kessel.
It’s a tough call with Ballard. He is no guarantee, except that I guarantee that he is going to smoke guys and be a pain in the ass to play against. How’s his IQ in his own end? I have no idea. Yoata could be right that we acquired another Bieksa. At least, YouTube dictates that. I need to interview a Panthers guy for more accurate info
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 26, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
BTW
I see fault in both dan and yoata’s attacks on eachother. Give peace a chance, fuckers, or I’ll sick Yoko Ono on you
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 26, 2010 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Not Yoko
anyone but Yoko. Before you know it the entire SBN network will be split up because they “wanted to try different things”.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
A really good prospect in Grabner and a 1st rounder for WHAT???
Brutal.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
from Dan Murphy, in answer to a Bieksa question
Ive heard the Bruins might RT @Michael_Rotondo: Which team might be interested.
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
BotchonCanucks: @missy_canucks Oreskovich is a moving part. Not locked in. If there is a certain player for Florida to pick at 25, Oreskovich will change
So maybe we get someone better than Oreskovich that makes Grabner worth it?
i’m @missy_canucks
when i saw the change on the other thread, i went on twitter and asked him what the hell was going on.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
I like Grabner, but he’s had chances and he doesn’t make as much sense as Raymond and our young guys moving up. Ballard is overpaid, that’s obvious, and that’s the only trouble I have with this deal. We have some strong prospects as it stands now.
Pre-seasons and 20 games don’t count? I don’t know about you (though I do know about yoata), but to me they do. He’s had chances, if not every chance he deserves, but this is the NHL and you make your mark early or not at all. We clearly need a blue line more than young forwards (I don’t know if Ballard can be the big part of that, but it’s true). The right to a full season has to be earned, and I think it’s pretty clear that next season he’d be back in the pool in training camp. And we’re a team with a lot of young talent, much of it way more promising than Grabner, and we need them to grow far more quickly.
That hat trick was cool though.
Must write all thoughts in post.
This is a not a good trade for the Canucks.
Bernier hasn’t lived up to potential, and Grabner has taken time to develop, but I have the feeling he’ll be there, soon. And for the return- an okay defenseman and pretty ‘meh’ prospect- it’s a pretty high asking price, IMO.
I’d say the Canucks best bet for improving their D is subtraction (e.g. getting rid of plugs like Alberts), not addition.
Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jun 25, 2010 6:51 PM PDT reply actions
Seriously?
Why is everyone so ridiculously down on this deal?
Everyone wanted an upgrade at D. Check.
Everyone wanted to get rid of Bernier. Check.
Let’s at least give Ballard a chance.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
We have five years to give him a chance.
So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.
by thelastjohnny on Jun 25, 2010 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
at that price he had better play top 2 minutes
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 25, 2010 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions
For sure. Eat up the minutes so someone like Erhoff can play less, but be more effective, especially offensively.
So don't get violent and don't get caught with your head down, the night she stole the moon.
by thelastjohnny on Jun 25, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. I have to say, I am OK with Ballard.
And I think any guy that can play Top 4 minutes on a bad team like the Kittycats, and still be only -7 while playing 22 minutes plus…
Is pretty good at only 4.2 for 5 more years. Defenceman are an escalating price tag, and the guy is 3rd overall in blocks too.
Who
is he an upgrade over???
Why down?
Is this team so stocked with top prospects that we can afford to give away a very good on and a 1st rounder for a depth dman???
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Geez yoata…your blood pressure is going to go through the roof..relax…think about it…
Now go to the corner for a time out. Take a deep breath.
He is an upgrade on most of our d’men defensively, can play against other team’s top lines, and is mean.
I can’t see why you are being so dickish about him if you put on your hockey hat and stop trying to act smart.
Ballard is a competent and good all around defenceman…
The Canuck team got better today…and we have enough redundancy ( Gillis’s word ) in other guys up front that we could trade Grabner ( a guy you are overrating in a big way…he was good offensively, but not at the other end…you don’t win Cups with players like that .
What’s the problem?
Again
with the personal insults, all because I have a different opinion than you and your gillisgod.
Use that little brain of yours and analyze the trade for what it is and you know damn well if Calgary made it you would be mocking them for all you are worth, so get off the koolaid for once and realize that at best he is a #4 and giving up all that for a #4 not only is a joke, it will do very little to improve our chances in the playoffs.
Grabner was 22 and had played all of 20 games you twit, to make up your mind on his potential based on that is moronic, FFS where would Raymond, Kesler and Burrows be if they were evaluated on their first 20 games???
The problem is you are guzzling the koolaid as usual.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Wow…look above. I gave you a chance.
And here you are again…you know son, you have grown not a whit since I first met you here.
It is tiresome that all who disagree with yoata are idiotic koolaid drinkers, but OK.
I tried…you want to keep being immature about it.
Fine. Just talk puck son, and keep the other stuff insude. No one needs to see any more of it than is needed.
Sheesh.
Again…all just your opinion.
And again…a gentle gibe or two is an insult? Nothing I have said is anywhere near as mean as you. I say everything with a sense of humor…you are just mean.
Get off the cross there Jesus.
Typical oblivion
to your own assholishness:
I can’t see why you are being so dickish about him if you put on your hockey hat and stop trying to act smart.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
And why not
just answer the simple questions asshole?
Who is he an upgrade over?
Do we have the depth on the farm to be giving away top prospects and 1st rounders for overpaid depth dmen???
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Asshole?
Who’s leading with insults.
I answered you above son. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
Grow up.
You answered nothing
And you claiming that I am the one leading with insults is what is embarrassing.
Liar.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
I read and reread yahoo's report
“conditional on there not being a player the Canucks want available at no. 25”
does this mean if Canucks find, say Tinordi available and draft him, then the deal is off?
Like: Gillis has a plan for d men. Even if the draft and free agency yields no immediate help for next season, he won’t be left naked as doing nothing ( see Kevin lowe with vanek and nylander a couple years ago)
dislike: 4.6 m per for Ballard. But seems like the market price IF you go free agent route.
by nucklinBadger on Jun 25, 2010 7:02 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
i think the wild card in this deal is Oreskovich. if he turns out to do well in a Canucks uniform, then i’ll consider this a balanced trade.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
I think at the most
he will be the Canucks’ John Mitchell. Flashes of brilliance, nothing special otherwise.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
For all we know, this entire deal was ballard for the pick. Then grabner got involved with the cavaet that MG had the entire first round to kill the deal if he saw fit. Bernier is a straight up salary dump, similar to Luko saddled with Hoff last summer.
FLA wins on paper, but if grabner doesn’t blossom into a top six guy, seems like we did fine. And if having ballard means salo or bieska can be moved for durability/reliability respectively, then all the better.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 7:49 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I’m not sold on the idea that Bieksa gets traded though. I hope he does but like I said before, I give up on that happening.
As for Grabner, I’m thinking he could be at least a 60 point guy in the NHL level. So many skills there. I need more time to digest this. Maybe I’m higher on Grabner than most are?
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 25, 2010 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Grabner: His defense is below par and just seem to not click with the rest of the team. In a weird way, he seems to me a very young Pavol Demitra – skillful and scorer of great goals but not a goalscorer because he does not score when you need him to. That might be the main reason while MG wants him out?
As for Bieksa, I think someone will be willing to take a flyer on him just because there is a lack of d-men in the league.
by nucklinBadger on Jun 25, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Isn’t it just a case of trading from strength to correct a weakness?
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
trading from strength to correct a weakness
That too. Just trying to justify why Grabner and not someone else? After all if management believed in Grabner more then maybe we would have traded away Schroeder / Shirokov / CoHo instead?
by nucklinBadger on Jun 25, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Because all those guys can fill the spot Grabner leaves, and have the added benefit ( well, two of them, we will see how much Shark has adapted to the NHL this camp )…of being better on the backcheck most of the time.
Grabs was pretty one dimensional, and would get those great chances with his speed.
I am going to trust the GM and Co on this one. They ahve had him long enough to get a good read on what he can and cannot do.
What else is new.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
What strength?
What young sniper winger prospects did we have aside from Grabner?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
He's played
20 freakin games in the NHL and you can already say all that about him?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
which can be waived, just punch his one working nut
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I am not sure why everyone is so ticked off either. Ballard is a legit top 4 def signed to a cap friendly deal thru the prime of his career. I worked in scottsdale a few years ago and saw quite a few coyotes games and he is a good solid defenseman, physical with some offensive skills. What were the odds we’d pick a defenseman as good as Ballard at 25th? Bernier is a salary dump Oreskovich can do what he does for 1.5mil less. As for Grabner do you really think he is going to develop into a superstar in the quagmire that is FLA? The kid has speed, a decent shot but no finish around the net. He’s also very similar to raymond, schroeder, rodin as others have mentioned and we don’t need any more small forwards.
Not every deal can be two spare parts for an Ehroff! I remember people bitching that we had to give up Bryan Allen and Alex Auld along w/Bertuzzi to get Luongo….anyone miss auld or allen now? :)
Cap friendly?
$4.2 when Hamhuis and Volchenkov are projected at no more than 5?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Annnd…we have tomorrow for the Canucks to do a little wheeling and dealing with everyone else on the floor. He was seen by Brunt ( who tweeted it….like a little girl stalker )
“Saw Gillis and Wilson going for a walk under the bleachers…”
Now all these kids like McFarland and Merrill come back, and if they are high guys that fell, the Canucks can chickenhawk the higher draft guys with trading for their 2nds and 3rds…
No one wants to trade the 1st for the way it looks and whatnot, but if the kid Dla. got doesn’t work out…so what?
We needed D’ and got a good one at a good price. The guys on the market above him are all looking for way more than he gets.
Now Gillis can go about making some moves. Lots of teams that wouldn’t trade a 1st will trade a 2nd or 3rd.
We spent all this extra dough on the scouts and the organization.
Seems to me their big day is tomorrow. Look for gems with the picks we have, and maybe move up if there is a guy they love.
i think both teams did well and will even out next year. Not sad too see Bernier go though.
Too many people bitched about my name, so it is now.......William......HOORAY!!! :)
by My Landed Immigrant status just expired! on Jun 25, 2010 8:37 PM PDT reply actions
TSN Panel: Bob likes this for the Canucks, adding more sandpaper.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
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I think I’ll reserve judgement until Christmas. We’ll have a better idea out of what we’re going to get out of these guys by then. I could see if things go well, all of us loving Ballard by that time.
I think Bernier and Oreskovich were both thrown into the deal as spare parts, maybe a bit of a salary dump for Vancouver. Sadly, I have to agree that there really wasn’t any room in the lineup for Grabner. He’s not a third liner, the only way he’s going to excel is in an offensive role, and the southeast division should give him lots of room to freewheel. And if he had gone out and become a consistent 20+ there’s no way we would be able to afford him come contract time, whenever that is.
It kindof sucks that we gave up a draft pick in the deal though, I suppose we were giving up one unproven commodity and an inconsistent power forward for a proven capable and physical d-man and a probable minor leaguer. Probably wasn’t enough, hence the draft pick.
Still doesn’t sit well with me though. I will stand by Gillis though, I trust him, he’s got a plan, right?
Has anybody brought up the fact that PHI has sent Hamhuis’ rights to PIT?
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
probably slipped somewhere beneath everything else.
still means nothing until either he gets signed or july 1st arrives.
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Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
Gillis talks to Botchford about the 1st round Canucks movement.
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Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
a quote
“It was really difficult. But you have to include quality if you want quality in return, that’s the nature of the NHL right now. We have a defenceman who is signed long term and signed through his key period and that was vital for us.
“This was a unique opportunity to improve our team and not be at risk.
“With Mason Raymond’s emergence, with our lineup, it would have been very difficult for Michael to get in. If Mason continues to advance and gets into the 30-goal category, our third line can’t be constituted with guys who are goal scoring players. We were fortunate to have that kind of redundancy so we could look at trade like this.
“Grabner is a really good player with big upside. But you’re not going to get an NHL defenceman without giving up a player like that.”
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i added a fanshot to the front page.
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Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
AND
a 1st rounder…
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
read the article
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
that was just the quote talking about letting go of grabs
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
I don't need
to read the article, he said you have to give up to get and then all he mentions is Grabner.
A case could be made for Bernier + a first or Bernier + Grabner for Ballard, but all 3 for Ballard and a minor leaguer is brutal, it’s a garbage trade by a garbage GM.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
maybe you should read it. he also mentions how bernier was redundancy as well, how we’ve been accumulating lots of assets, how ballard is what we need right now, how he decided to let the pick go, and mentioned he isn’t done yet.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
WTF
does that have to do with the fact that he gave up WAY too much for a 3rd rate depth dman?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
I don’t need to read the article, he said you have to give up to get and then all he mentions is Grabner.
all i was doing was informing you that he said more than that. i haven’t said anything about whether the deal is good or bad.
seriously, yoata, i don’t want to argue with you, i’ve seen how bad it can get. i’m just pointing out what Gillis had to say.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
You took issue
with what I had to say, not the other way around, as I said, anything else he has to say is irrelevant, of course he’s going to defend the deal, he made it, that doesn’t mean it’s automatically good.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
The loss of which
puts our 1st pick this year at #115…
A 1st round pick is nothing to toss away like a kleenex, especially when you look at what we have on the farm.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
and as Gillis says in the article, he’ll be trying to get a pick tomorrow in the 2nd or 3rd round.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Canucks to win the Stanley Cup.....
So what?
He’ll have to give something up to get that pick, again, irrelevant, it’s a shit deal that doesn’t even address our biggest needs even at the expense of a couple of our best assets.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Since when do you think
Bernier is one of our best assests?
“IMO if there’s no place for Bernier in the top 6 he has to get moved, even just for a pick”
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Jun 27, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Clearly he’s referring to Grabner and the 1st round pick. He has a point with that, I just differ in that I think the return was reasonable.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 27, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Too much for now, but...
Not fond of this trade, but more for potential than anything else.
Best: Grabner never develops to full potential; Ballard discovers an offensive touch no one knew he had and cleans up his D-zone mistakes, gaining top-two minutes and earning his paycheque; Oreskovich turns into the second coming of Neely. Well, or at least moves into the 25-30 goal mark.
In this case, other players step up to add scoring punch to the third line with Hodgson and Schroeder fitting in seamlessly with whoever happens to be there.
Worst: Grabner fills out to his 40-50 goal potential; Ballard earns no more than second pairing ice time because of mental mistakes and 30 point plateau; Oreskovich dosn’t stick in the NHL; Quinton Howden becomes another Ryan Kesler; neither Schroeder nor Hodgson pan out, leaving all of Vancouver’s scoring on two lines with no support on the third or fourth.
Lots of variables that we’re going to have to wait for, but what hits me first about this trade is that Ballard isn’t a top-two defender, though he is paid for it; Grabner has massive scoring potential, though he was similar to Raymond; I would have liked to have seen Emerson Etem come to Vancouver in the draft; Mitchell wants to come back, specifically to Vancouver, and would have cost at least $1 million less than Ballard.
I just can’t see Oreskovich suddenly tripling his point totals, though I suppose it could happen; he has only had the one year at the NHL level, after all. If he ends up 20+ goals, then so much the better. And for all I know, Mitchell may still sign with Vancouver to fill our defence.
I really don’t like how everyone says Grabner has 40-50 goal potential.
Exactly 7 players scored more than 40 this year: http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/bycategory?cat=Offense&conference=NHL&sort=1
Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Marleau, Gaborik, Kovalchuk and Semin. Is Grabner REALLY in line with those players?
Another perspective to consider
This is a direct quote from Gabe at Behind the Net on the deal (from an email thread), after suggesting it looked like a bad deal for Florida:
I’m not a fan of Bernier – Vancouver essentially sent a draft pick to Florida to cover his salary. Ballard’s like Rob Scuderi with offensive talent. I know he was further down the depth chart before Bouwmeester and Skrastins left.
Grabner’s 22, spent three years in the AHL and established his talent as a 25-point guy in the NHL, but he’s a good example of what you can do if you play the PP and never need to do any defensive work because you’re always out with Kesler.
I guess if I was going to trade one of my best defensemen and his value contract, I’d want higher upside.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
Just to add some further comments that I already sent to Mike:
I don’t really watch the East, but here’s what I know:
1. He was Florida’s #1 D this season by Quality of Competition
2. He and Allen basically went out for most of Florida’s d-zone draws
3. His 5v5 Corsi (-9/60) is positive once you adjust for #1 and #2
4. His scoring chance was 55% vs 51% for the team as a whole (I have 10 games for them)
5. he was their #1 PK defenseman and their #4 PP D
He can handle tough competition like Willie Mitchell, he’s 6 years younger, durable and plays the PP. Mitchell just made $3.5M a year on a contract that started to look good as the cap went up. $4.2M is a good deal for Ballard.
Vigneault put Grabner in a position to succeed, then Gillis traded an overvalued asset. He had 68% of scoring chances and almost 10 pts/60 on the PP, which is not his talent level. He only had 12 PPG in 180 games in the AHL.
Based on
a 20 game sample of a 22 year old…
Grabner has lots of potential.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
certainly
moreso than almost any other prospect we have on the farm, so remember that in 2-3 years when the cupboards are bare but we have “depth” on defense…
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
They got to see Grabner play 180 games in Winnipeg. He had 120 points, which is 25-point territory in the NHL.
22-year-olds in the AHL tend to actually have very little NHL potential.
FFS
he scored at a 45 point clip in his first 20 NHL games…
Raymond didn’t play his first NHL game until he was 22 and didn’t have as good a ppg that season as Grabner had last year…
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Raymond didn’t play in the NHL until he was 22 because he was in college until he was 21. NCAA players develop differently than guys who play junior and get a couple of years in the A. Clearly he could have made the NHL straight out of college (a la Matt Carle) but there was no value for Vancouver to do so – he wasn’t going to play down the stretch or in the playoffs in 06-07.
What?
Raymond wasn’t even a clear NHLer until this year, if he was a clear NHLer before 22 he would have been here.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
When you play 49 games in the NHL in a single season, as Raymond did in 07-08, you are a clear NHLer. He also came from the NCAA, and the development path is different than for junior. College players often make a huge jump at ages 21-23. AHLers don’t.
BS
If Raymond hadn’t made the jump he did LAST year finally, he could easily be back in the minors, therefore he was hardly a clear NHLer.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Raymond’s 5v5 ice time went up 10% in 08-09 and then 25% in 09-10. And he moved up from 20th in quality of competition to 16th to 3rd. He has been making constant progress (unlike Grabner) and he’d still be in the league even if he’d only made a small step up in his 5v5 game.
A big chunk of Raymond’s apparent improvement from is playing with better linemates on the PP. His 5v4 TOI has actually dropped 30 seconds per game since 2007-08.
Again
how the fuck can you say Grabner has not made progress when he’s played 20 freaking games in the NHL???
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
NHL level isn’t the only level at which you can make progress.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
He was
comparing Raymond’s progress to Grabner’s, since only one has played any significant time in the NHL it is a ridiculous comparison.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Hawerchuck has come in and given very well reasoned posts with stats to back it up regarding his opinions on Grabner, referencing other players who have followed the same progression as Grabner, showing that they may not turn out to be big producers in the NHL.
So he’s only played 20 NHL games, so what? He’s played multiple years in the AHL, and the trend of other players who have done that is not good.
Right now you are just being negative about this to be negative. Hawerchuck is presenting well reasoned posts about why Grabner might not be that big of a deal to give up and yet you just blowing him off repeating the same “he’s only played 20 games” line.
It’s too early to tell if this is a good thing or not. But it’s not the disaster you are making it out to be. Stop blowing it out of proportion. Not all trades are going to be Errhoff for spare parts.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Don't tell me
what I’m being, I happen to disagree, if you want to dismiss that as some sort of character flaw that’s your problem not mine.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Grabner’s translations:
2006-07: WHL + 2 games AHL = 25 points per 82 NHL games
2007-08: AHL = 11 points
2008-09: AHL = 27 points
2009-10: AHL = 25 points
He hasn’t developed. He played a nice 20 games in the bigs under favorable conditions. His perceived value will never be higher. Gillis was good to move him.
WTF
are you talking about “translation” according to what?
Grabner has been a better prospect than Raymond all the way along, just look at when each was drafted, and it won’t surprise me if Grabner scores better next year than Raymond did this, and speaking of Raymond, talk about favourable conditions last year…
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
NHL scouts have been using a translation for points from other leagues for 30+ years. I calculated the translations to be around:
AHL ~ 0.45
NCAA ~ 0.35
CHL ~ 0.3
It varies a bit by age and PP time, but those numbers will get you close.
Of course
it varies by age, A LOT, not to mention it varies by era, just like the NHL, junior used to be a lot higher scoring than it is today, you have to factor that in, not to mention the CHL is hardly homogenous, no way you can compare the Q to the O and W, any “set” figure for “translation” based solely on the league is ludicrous.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Actually, it doesn’t vary that much by age for AHL players (junior and NCAA guys, yes) and it doesn’t vary by era because a high-scoring NHL means a high-scoring AHL and high-scoring junior. Since 1967-68, North American leagues tend to all have the same general style of play.
And yes, you can use the same average translation for the WHL, OHL and QMJHL.
ridiculous
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
on what basis? i’m assuming Hawerchuck is speaking from real data analysis
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
on what basis?
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Here’s a table of historical goals-per-game by league. I haven’t updated it in five years, but you can see the trends:
http://behindthenet.ca/hist_gpg.html
Here’s a summary of projecting players to the NHL:
http://behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.html
It’s a little disjointed because it’s actually four different articles taped together, but it details most of what I mentioned here.
Thanks
for all the stats Hawerchuck
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I’m surprised you can do all this statistical analysis Hawerchuk. After Konstantinov rang your bell I thought you became a vegetable. heheh. I kid.
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 26, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Always bringing that up Sean
Water under the bridge, I say!
Much like any sort of Calgary/Toronto playoff success.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
heheh, oh yeah?
I liked Hawerchuk, most of the time. Only when he was with the Jets though
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 26, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions
There's
a lot of truth to what you’re saying, and the reason I know is because I’ve been doing that sort of projection analysis for years as well, but I think there are other factors that have to be considered in most of those statistics that I think allow some of those factors you’ve concluded on to be oversimplified.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Before last year
I think few would have rated Patric Hornquist or Matt Moulson as better prospects than Grabner, but both scored 30 goals last year, and I won’t be surprised if Grabner gets 20+ next year if given a real opportunity.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
First off
Sorry about some of my comments yesterday, I was in a bad mood about a lot of things (idiotic G20 protestors among other things) and posting when in a bad mood is not a good idea.
I agree with you that Grabner could get 20+ goals when given a real chance, the problem is that he was never going to get that chance on the Canucks, as we already have a pretty high scoring top 6. And we don’t really need a small speedy guy on the 3rd/4th line who’s defensive skills are questionable.
Of course, the question remains, could we have gotten more for him. Maybe, but I don’t think it would have been a motherload. In this trade, yes, the price in my opinion as well was too high. I don’t think we could have sent anything different over (needed to get rid of Bernier’s contract, needed to add something to it to sweeten it up a bit), but we should have at least gotten a lower round pick in return.
Not having any picks in the first three rounds is irresponsible. Hell, even Burke traded up for a pick in the second.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
No worries
I don’t even remember which were yours.
I’d just rather either hang on to 1st round picks and good young prospects than trade them away for more mediocrity, if Ballard was 23 and looked to have potential to be a stud OK, or if he was a true shut down guy who could handle the traffic in front of the net OK, or if he brought some SC experience to the table, OK, but I don’t see any of that, hopefully I’m wrong and he’s a late bloomer who thrives on the West Coast air, honestly I hope I am because this trade could really haunt this organization of even 2 of those assets realize their potential.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
And speaking of
not developing…
What of Ballard? After his rookie season people were saying he was a future Norris candidate, since then he’s regressed into a “depth” 2nd pairing guy with consistency problems.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
2nd pairing, if he is that, is not depth. Completely not how that term is used in hockey lingo. Depth is 5-7 d-men. 1-4 is core. He is absolutely a core d-man. And he was their number 1 penalty killer. And he played more shifts per game than any other player on the team. And he played on the PP as well. That’s not depth, that’s an integral player.
Anyway Florida didn’t really have a 1st pairing and 2nd pairing, more like a 1a and 1b.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Point was
he hasn’t developed since his rookie year’s projected potential, he’s regressed.
Regardless of where he sat on a lousy team, right now he’s probably #5 on the Nucks.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
No, he’s ahead of Bieksa for sure. Bieksa is mr. regression by a mile. Ballard does every thing better than Bieksa does at the moment. There still remains potential in Bieksa, but no way would I rely on him to eat up minutes against top opposition. And I think Edler on most nights this year, though Edler has great games sporadically. I would say he’s 3.5 in our current lineup after Salo and Ehrhoff, and he can free them up from some of the tougher minutes, which is valuable.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
If he's ahead
of Bieksa it’s barely, replacing Bieksa with him is a minor improvement, hardly the kind of thing you throw away 1st rounders and top prospects for.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Bieksa is 2 years older and UFA after this season. Ballard is 4 more seasons after this.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Talking about
on the ice, right now, no way you can say Ballard is a huge upgrade over Bieksa.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
He has only regressed if he isn't as good as he was as a rookie
he maybe hasn’t developed as much as people thought but that’s a different argument. That has more to do with “experts” over estimating how good he would be than him “regressing” in any way.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Jun 27, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Quoted for truth.
Grabner’s 22, spent three years in the AHL and established his talent as a 25-point guy in the NHL, but he’s a good example of what you can do if you play the PP and never need to do any defensive work because you’re always out with Kesler.
Looks like
the Canucks are going to have to completely rebuild their third line. Bernier gone, Grabner gone, I assume Demitra is gone and presumably Wellwood too. I assume that more trades or UFAs are coming otherwise our bottom six is looking pretty thin.
Gillis said (in the link above that Missy provided) they wanted it bigger. Plus Hodgson will be given yet another chance to claim that spot in September.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know who this Hawerchuck guy is, but he’s making me feel really good with his analysis, so I like him. He’s like the anti-yoata.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:23 PM PDT reply actions
Ooooo… I probably should not have said that… yoata is in his very angry anti-Gillis and Gillis-lovers mode right now it seems.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Any Canuck fan
should be angry right now, this is $20M for Souptin stupid, brutal giveaway of assets for very little in return.
I don’t mind trading a 1st round pick and a top prospect like Grabner, but FFS get a significant improvement to the team in return…
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
For the same package...
what player would have been a significant improvement in your estimation?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Impossible
to speculate not knowing who is available.
But what about the fact that Hamhuis and Volchenkov are both projected to only get a little more $ and are both better players and would have cost nothing but money?
More to the point is Ballard going to do any more than provide depth? You really think with Ballard in the lineup we got past Chicago? No we need significant upgrade, either a stud dman or a rock solid shutdown guy, or both, not just depth.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Projected to get and what they may get in the frenzy of free agency can change. At least Ballard is a known quantity financially and I do think he’ll provide more than just depth. The stats we originally provided – plus the ones Gabe gave above – are telling enough. He may not be flashy, but there’s no reason to think he won’t be a dependable guy on one of the top pairings with both an offensive upside and PK value.
Ballard alone wouldn’t have stopped what Chicago did, but no single player would have. It requires a few new defenseman (and Gillis said he wasn’t done on that front) and size up front which Oreskovich may or may not ultimately deliver on, but I’d rather have dead weight that is half a milion and not two million bucks.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Come on
you think Hamhuis and Volchenkov are going to get significantly more than $5M?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
In a summer with few solid defenseman going around? Look at what’s happening with Hamhuis’s rights. Nashville gave up, Philly gave up…Pittsburgh likely will too. Ballard isn’t cheap but he’s not grossly overpaid like a Redden either. And his contract length makes him a known factor for the next few years, just like Kesler, the twins, Luongo, Edler and Burrows.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Who's to say there's not more coming??
Like I said in the the other post, people are jumping on this ONE trade as being the be-all-end all solution to fixing the D. Let’s breath a little and see what else happens. I know you’re not a big fan of Gillis yoata, but he did say “we’re not done yet” specifically about the defense. So let’s see what happens.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Again
don’t see what that has to do with evaluating the trade, whatever else he does, this is still a garbage deal.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
except for wonderful wonderful foreign films
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
More like an extreme version of
Dr. Gregory House from House.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s the SBN manager for Behind The Net. Definitely worth checking out on a regular basis.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
It really is. Behind the Net is a reliably great read.
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
by ThomasPratt on Jun 25, 2010 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not like he just gave away the first round pick either. He waited until all the players he wanted were drafted before making the deal. Bernier was almost dead weight. The only thing we really give up in the deal is Grabner. You gotta give something to get something. Giving up a guy who only has 20 NHL games under his belt for a proven defeneman is a good deal in my books even if Grabner goes on to a successful career.
That's ridiculous
to say that there were no valuable players left at 25 is to ignore decades of terrific players selected late in the 1st round and beyond, especially considering we don’t have a pick until 115.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
The 25th pick is worth about $2.4M on average. Bernier’s contract + $2.4M ~ Oreskovich. That’s a wash. Grabner’s median value is zero – 50% of guys with his profile basically never produce anything in the NHL.
Gillis has a team that needs a shot at winning the cup in the next two years. He doesn’t have time to wait for a #25 pick to pan out and he’s better off taking Ballard’s present value over Grabner’s potential future value.
This trade reminds me of US politics. Everyone wants to lower the crazy deficit. But no one wants to cut social services, and no one wants to raise taxes. Propose to raise taxes… “BOO!!!!!” goes the public… propose to cut services….. “BOO!!!!!” goes the public… don’t do anything and the debt goes up and up… “But you promised us change!!!!” goes the public.
Basically, we needed to upgrade our D. This does upgrade our D. Is he Keith or Doughty or Pronger? No. But no players like that are available, nor are they ever unless such a player wants to move or horrendous cap doom for their team. It is nonetheless an upgrade. He was a legit top 2 in the east, and should be a legit top 4 in the west. He has a track record of good health, and he can eat up 22 minutes a game with competence and some offensive ability. He can play PP, ES, and SH. I like this pickup. The question is do I like what we lost to get him? No. But I understand that’s the name of the game. We very likely made the 2015 Vancouver Canucks a weaker team. But we’ve made the 2010 Canucks roster stronger without a doubt in my mind. So I think this trade is good. It’s certainly a risk, but one that makes sense to me.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 25, 2010 10:43 PM PDT reply actions
The only guy as of today I saw out there who could have been a stud on the back end next year is 6"6’Jarred Tinordi.
Unfortunately he was taken, so, I like MG’s move, at least he got sth heading into tmr armed with FOURTH ROUND draft picks and a free agency period stacked with lackluster d-men.
by nucklinBadger on Jun 25, 2010 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions
This trade reminds me of US politics. Everyone wants to lower the crazy deficit. But no one wants to cut social services, and no one wants to raise taxes. Propose to raise taxes… "BOO!!!!!" goes the public… propose to cut services….. "BOO!!!!!" goes the public… don’t do anything and the debt goes up and up… "But you promised us change!!!!" goes the public.
Oh man, I don’t want to get too far afield here on a hockey blog, but you really nailed the political scene down here in 2010. It drives me bananas in it’s sheer mind numbing foolishness
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
by ThomasPratt on Jun 26, 2010 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Haha… I know what you mean. It was for purposes of analogy only! Everyone knows what they want, but no one’s got the balls to accept what it might cost.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
As I said
trade the prospect and the pick, no problem, but SIGNIFICANTLY improve the team NOW if you’re going to do that, adding expensive depth is a half-witted half-assed, half-measure, Gillis’ specialty.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Again, he’s not depth. He’s a legit top-4 d-man who is 27 years old and signed for 5 years. That is not depth. Andrew Alberts is depth. I don’t mind if you dislike the trade, but at least describe who Ballard is appropriately.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
It's depth
in terms of whether or not it (especially if he’s in effect replacing Bieksa) SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVES the team, which it does not.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
wow, seems like everyone here got their knickers in a knot…. i saw more reasonable comments from the guys at tsn…. i think the trade is reasonable, not ideal but not horrible (as some so eloquently have stated) i do hope gillis trades away bieksa (please please please!!!) to clear up some cap space to sign a free agent defence man. but i suppose we"ll have to wait. plus a lot of similarites between ballard and hamhuis, both 27, hamhuis drafted 12 ballard 11, also drafted one year apart, both had their best seasons (satistically) in their rookie season (38 and 39, go figure), they play the same amount of minutes, and ballard already makes 4.2 mil while hamhuis is slated to make 4-5 mil… don’t know about everyone else, but they seem comparable to me
After he retired he went back to Notre Dame to finish school and graduated with a degree in finance.
Presumably then Oreskovich would see the wisdom in replacing a $2 million third liner with a $500-k third liner.
My hopes exceed my expectations
-WeepingTile
Oreskovich
is hardly a 3rd liner, he’s a borderline NHLer who offers little but size.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
I’ll say what I said on the other thread: We gave up something we have tons of for something we needed. In the process we got to dump bernier’s salary and give him a chance to reach his full potential; he wasn’t going to do that here and that’s ok. Did I like Grabner? Heck yeah. Is he the next Cam Neely trade? Fuck no. We have so many kids in our system with wheels and soft hands, plus raymond already performing (and improving), why not offload someone who is both A: not fully fleshed out, but yet B: still has trade value because he has shown what he can become? This is not a bad trade.
Let haters like yoata hate…u won’t change their minds, they’re the tea party-ers of the hockey world; you won’t change their minds until sarah palin tells them it’s ok. And they’re always here. But this will prove to be a not egregious deal for us.
One other thing…everyone seems to have forgotten that hamhuis and a couple other RFA and UFA’s are still in play for Vancouver. I’m not saying we have the room or the cap space to continue our play for them, I don’t actually know. But who says we’re done on defense? Imagine Errhoff, Edler, Hamhuis, Ballard, Salo as your first 5…that’s almost a pretty good defensive corps. And I still believe that SOB can be a good shutdown guy when he matures a bit. And we still have some mighty strong prospects. Anyways, I’m kinda excited about this trade. A bit bummed to say good by to grabs, but not as bummed as I’d be if it was Raymond, and it makes sense that he’d be the most valuable asset we’re willing to part with not named bieksa.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
Let haters like yoata hate
Please…no…
You want Hammer here? Then we have to part with Biesuk.
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 26, 2010 3:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm okay
With Hammer for Bieksa…just saying
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Tons of?
We have tons of high draft picks and top prospects???
Let the gillisgod lovers love, the man can do no wrong, and some of you have that can’t see the follishness in this trade rag on Sutter and Burke for overpaying for mediocrity, take off the blue shades once in a while.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Um… Canucks so far have been pretty good under Gillis. Can’t say that about Flames under Sutter or Leafs under Burke. But I digress. You’re right we don’t have tons of prospects. But we’re a team that’s trying to win now. I feel like you want us to strive to constantly be average. Can you give me one legitimate workable constructive idea for us to become a stronger contender right now that would not involve losing prospects/picks?
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
LOL
It’s Gillis that wants us to constantly strive to be average.
As usual he doesn’t make significant improvements to the team Burke and Nonis built for him.
I used to give him shit for not having the balls to give up something to get something, but after this he’d be better off to stick to dumpster diving and trying to win the lottery, because selling the farm for more mediocrity, which we already have plenty of is not at all what I had in mind.
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Again
You act like this is the only trade Gillis is making this off season. We get your hate-on for him. It’s a little over the top at the moment
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Fixed:
It’sa little
always
over the topat the moment
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 26, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Just because
I’m not automatically in love with everything Canucks management does, does not = hate, ever consider the possibility that it is you who has the bias?
Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair
Gabe's take at BTN
http://www.behindthenethockey.com/2010/6/26/1538287/vancouver-florida-trade-on-michael
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
My take
I don’t like this trade. I don’t detest it, like some people (cough yoata cough), but it gives me a very bad feeling. In the sense that is high risk. Ballard could turn out to be fucking awful, and then we just gave up Stone Hands (which Im not too choked about), Grabs (who had quite a bit of potential) and our first rounder (which in a cap era, is quite valuable. Franchises are built and destroyed in the draft). Sure, Ballard could turn out to be a very good defenseman, much like the people at Litter Box Cats and Vancitydan have said, but what if he doesn’t? We’re fucked!
Why not pull a Philly, trade Bernier to NYI for a pick in the second round this season, or a first rounder next season, sign Frolov (2 mill), sign Belanger(2 mill), sign Fedotenko(1.2 mill), get Hamhuis or Volchenkov or even Tallinder for not much more than Ballard, possibly even less in Tallinder’s case. Of course we’ll be close to the cap, but I’d rather be close to the cap and have a very good team than not be close to the cap, have an overpaid D-man on the second pairing at most, and a not good enough team.
Then again, I could just be being stupid and it will all turn out well. We’ll see in December.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"One time I was invited to come to a social gathering. I was paid a handsome amount of money, and I brought a shotgun and a bottle of Tanqueray and showed those people the best f***ing time they’ve ever seen." - Kenny Powers
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Alternate Captain and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 26, 2010 4:29 PM PDT reply actions
Quote RE: Oreskovich
Bernier is big but doesnt use his size (something Oreskovich was great at), he floats like an 07-08 Horton, he has stone hands, he’s overpaid and he puts up less points than Olesz!!! We just got a poor-mans Olesz, Why, Dale?
From a guy at Litter Box Cats
and regarding Grabs:
Grabner has upside but why get him? He sounds pretty similiar to Repik to me, speed, talent, prolilfic in the AHL, defensive qestion mark. Repiks known to play with his heart on his sleeve and be a clutch guy, Grabner?. I would give the nod to Repik over Grabner. Grabners good but why get him when we have Repik?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
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