Around The NHL
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 15, 2010 9:30 PM PDT
in NHL Links
73 comments
-Is Pavel Bure Hall Of Fame-worthy in 2010? Joe Pelletier from Greatest Hockey Legends says "yes" and discusses why.
-Doug Weight will sign with the Islanders for one...more...year. I guess 1 Stanley Cup is good enough for him. (TSN)
-George Armstrong, Darryl Sittler and Wendel Clark were invited to the Dion Phaneuf captaincy press conference but Mats Sundin wasn't? Bitter Assholes!!!
-Brendan Morrison, Scott Walker and Joe Corvo will not be wearing Capitals jerseys next season. (TSN). Hey Gillis! Let's create a Canucks reunion! A Morrison-Walker-Cooke line will suffice won't it? You could also add Jose Theodore to the list of Washington rejects.
-Did you miss 4 Blackhawks players making an appearance with the Stanley Cup on the Jay Leno Show on Monday night? Well, here it is. Awwwkwaaarrrrd.
-Here is a terrific piece on new Blue Jackets coach Scott Arniel (Columbus Dispatch). Yeah, we lost a good guy didn't we? Here are some quotes from Arniel at the press conference. I think the BJ's are going to thrive under Scott Arniel. The players will love him. Best of luck once again, Mr. Arniel, until you play the Canucks, of course.
-The Ducks will be sporting their 3rd jerseys next season. It looks like this. Kidding. Who in the hell came up with and OK'd that jersey anyway? Off with their heads! Anyway, the new look is a mystery. I'm guessing a Duck Hunt theme.
-Wanna know how a good captain responds to media questions about his future with the team and his lackluster play? Look no further.
-A very good chance Ethan Moreau, Sheldon Souray, Robert Nilsson and Patrick O'Sullivan are done in Edmonton. Ethan Moreau is making $2 million this coming season...what do you think Canucks fans? There is a guy with character and grit for line 3.
-Beginning today, NHL teams can buy out the contracts of players they no longer want. Players over 26 are bought out at two-thirds of the remaining amount, while younger ones get one-third. In both scenarios teams get double the time remaining to absorb the hit to the salary cap, meaning if a player has two years left, they can spread the dollar amount out over four years.
That from the Detroit Free Press. I wasn't aware of that "drawn-out" rule. Oh and Jason Williams is hitting the UFA market, like anybody cares.
-Spezza may be tired of his critics in Ottawa but he does have some fans who, through the power of Facebook (gag) are going to hold a rally on Parliament Hill on Saturday to keep Spezza in Ottawa. That's real cute. I weeping over here.
-Vancouver hotelier Tom Gaglardi is one of the candidates to buy the Dallas Stars.
-Cam Neely will be named the new Bruins' president tomorrow at a press conference. He was a Canuck once....yes he was. Now imagine if Barry Pederson never existed.
-The Thrashers and Maxim Afinogenov are not even close to negotiating a new deal. Can't blame the Thrashers. Can you spell A-N-O-M-A-L-Y? It still baffles me to this day how much Maxim looks like Pavel Bure in appearance and in his skating technique. He just hasn't blown out his knees yet...or scored 60 goals....
-Todd Bertuzzi wants Marc Crawford to pay the damages awarded to Steve Moore...etc, etc. (Globe and Mail) Can they just get that fucking issue resolved already? It won't be until next year though, as the article states. So......fuck it.
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Wouldn't mind Mo coming back...
…but Scotty’s only half a player at a full price. How many games do you think we’d get out of him?
With that news out of Boston, the Significant Other is never going to switch her allegiance to the Canuckleheads… Dang!
I dont want
Ethan Moreau, and fucking hell Iggy is awesome.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 12:41 AM PDT reply actions
I’ve always liked Iggy. Probably because he’s kicked ass in the ‘02 and ’10 Olympics. And he’s extremely dedicated. Imagine if he was on a team that actually had a good top center?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Henrik Sedin? LOL
"Maybe subconsciously [Jason Kendall] feels the need to throw the ball in the outfield since he can’t hit it there." - AJaha25 on Kendall leading the Royals in errors
The brother line again?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Bure in the Hall? Hell, yeah. And I don’t want to hear any of that " He didn’t win a cup" bullshit, either.
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
I think it's time to retire #10 too...
…it’s been long enough.
No. The Russian Rocket was #10. That 96 guy was meh.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 16, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
He didn’t win an MVP either. Or an Art Ross, or a Conn Smythe. So if he was never the best player in the league even once in the 13 seasons he played – why is he one of the best of all time ?
He won a couple Maurice Richards (although they didn’t have that trophy back then). That’s pretty important. Because you know, scoring goals is an important part of winning games, and scoring more goals than anyone else is a good amount of goals to score…
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 16, 2010 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Sounds like John Madden
“….And you know folks, the team that scores the most points, wins the game!”
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions
“If the receiver catches the football in the end zone then that is a touchdown!”
by marcness52 on Jun 17, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Hey, the offensive linemen are the biggest guys on the field, they’re bigger than everybody else, and that’s what makes them the biggest guys on the field."
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 17, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You both get recs.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
"I'm a bulletproof tiger. I'm the man who has the ball, I'm the man who can throw it faster than f*ck!" - Kenny Powers of Eastbound and Down
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 17, 2010 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The Calder in ’92, back to back Richards in ’00 and ’01, five 50 goal seasons, first all-star in ’94, second all-star in ’00 and ’01…do I need to go on?
A creep from the cradle, but a hero's what I want to be
no
You don’t have to go on and on. cause that is all you have.
The first time he scored 60 goals – he finished 5th in goals that year, a total of 13 guys scored 50 that year
The second time to 60 he did lead the league – but 8 other guys also had 50 that year ( including that HOF candidate Ray Sheppard)
His third 50 goal campaign he finished third with 51 – 3 other guys topped 50. So you can’t argue he scored goals in dead puck era.
His 58 and 59 goal season in Florida are his most dominant – with only 2 other 50 goal scorers over those years.
So for 2 years of his 13 in the league could you argue that he was the dominant goal scorer of the NHL and maybe a top ten goal scorer in 6 or 7 other years. Hardly what I would call a legend or generational player.
Bure was a goal scorer and not much else – but finished with fewer that Gilmour and less than half the points – that plus the Cup puts Gilmour way ahead.
As for Fleury – he again has more career goals and 50% more points with a PPG ave almost identical. Fleury has a Cup – and he was way more than a just a scoring guy. He fired his team up , and it was freakish that a guy that small could survive at that level.
I found a guy whose career that Bure’s looks most like – a guy who scored 400 – got a point a game and finished with 800 pts. Was the youngest to reach 50 – until broken by Gretzky. That guy ? Pierre Larouche.
Oh wait – Pierre won the Cup twice. Sorry Pavel
by PrairieStew on Jun 16, 2010 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha, your pro-Calgary stance is entertaining me
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 17, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Ethan Moreau
Think Edmonton would consider Moreau for Bernier? I’d do that.
Brendan Morrison? I think not. 3LC is where I want to see CH. I’m more interest in the other Vancouver-born Morrisonn.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
Dear gawd no...
Bernier is at least young, and has a tiny chance of improving.
Moreau is an anchor who no longer has the skills to be in the NHL, let alone a team that some consider a contender.
I would take a bag of used pucks over Moreau.
Well said
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Cooke…do not want. He was never any ball of fire here…let him rot somewhere like toronto.
Moreau…do not want. Doesn’t improve anything.
Iginla…who wouldn’t want? Won’t happen though.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
Might improve
the leadership quotient (that sounded like a Pierreism and I didn’t like the feeling) and the PK
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on Jun 16, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Do you
feel dirty?
WHAMMO! MONSTER! OH MY GOD WHAT A SAVE BY TOKARSKI!!!!!
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree
Cooke is Avery – lite. More controversy than he is worth.
Moreau’s body is 5 years older than his birth certificate says. Add that to the fact that he wasn’t very talented to begin with and you don’t want to go there.
Iginla is the only Flames asset that I beleive is safe. He’s an icon that has surpassed Lanny in Calgary. Lanny hit 500 g and 1000 pts , but of course only the last third of his career was in Calgary. Iggy will be a 500 G 1100 pts hall of famer that ownership there wants to fully have as a Flame forever. The only caveat is if he is offered a Bourque like exit in 3 years at the end of his contract; after he has hit the milestones.
The more I think about it – Vancouver should pursue Andrew Ladd.
HOF – I disagree with Bure, as i would with Lindros – they had HOF like seasons – but not careers. By the same measure I disagree with Cam Neely being put in several years ago. They did not contribute long enough. The reverse is true for Cicarelli – 600 goals but his contrribtution/impact pretty uninspiring. Just Nieuwendyk and Gilmour this year I think.
by PrairieStew on Jun 16, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
The HOF in my opinion
shouldn’t just be for longevity. It should be for once in a generation type players. Can you think of another player like Bure that played while he was in the league? Plus 400 goals in that short of a career is pretty awe inspiring considering the era he played in.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
It's not just for longevity - would you vote for Jim Carey ?
The 90’s had plenty of offense – especially in the first half. This decade included Yzerman, Messier , Shanahan Jagr, Sakic, Selanne, Sundin to say nothing of Gretzky and Lemiuex. All have more career stats and, except for Sundin have at least one Cup. Recchi, Modano and Ron Francis more career goals and points – also with Cups. All those guys will be in the Hall. Keith Tkacuk, Pierre Turgeon and Pat Verbeek contributed longer, though maybe not as spectacularly as Bure. Theoron Fleury had more points , but fewer goals – and for a period of 10 years was probably just as compelling as Bure. Glenn Anderson is in now – though it took him some time – not as spectacular but hard to argue 5 Cups.
The one thing that Bure did very well was score goals yet he only ranks 63rd all time, and only led the league twice. I didn’t look up career points as that is probably not top 100. Rookie of the year and led the league in goals a couple of times Any other awards ?The guy one goal ahead of him – Gary Roberts – had a lot more to his game – won Cups and fought through what some thought a career ending injury – does he deserve to be in ?
Sergei Federov is the best of the first generations of Russians and should be in ahead of Bure or Mogilny.
so to clarify
I wouldn’t vote for Lindros either, nor would I have voted for Neely or Clark Gilles. Other than that I have few arguments with who has been elected in the last 20 years.
Bure: World Junior Champion, still holds the record for goals in the world junior tournament (27), Calder winner, World Champion, 3 time Maurice Richard winner, 5 time 50 goal scorer, 2 time 60 goal scorer, named top forward of the 1998 olympics (aka first NHL olympics—by scoring 9 goals in 6 games, no less). He also won two championships in the Soviet League playing for the Red Army, which is no small feat. It’s the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL hall of fame, let’s not forget.
What makes Gilmour deserving??? He won 1 cup in Calgary. He won 1 Selke trophy. Other than that, no other notable individual achievement. In that lengthy career he only made TWO all-star games. So he wasn’t even thought of as one of the top 12 forwards in his conference most of his career. All of his big point season were before the dead puck era, which explains the lack of all-star games. Bure, meanwhile, scored 58 goals during a season in which Jagr won the Art Ross with only 96 points! And then Pavel went on to score 59 goals the next year. The only legitimate basis I think to argue Gilmour over Bure is Dougy having won the Cup. Other than that I think Bure’s a far more obvious choice. I think both will make it, and Dougy largely because of the sweater he’s most known for wearing.
And I don’t think anyone outside of Calgary would legitimately argue that Fleury was as compelling for Bure. Be real. Bure was widely regarded as the most exciting player in the game. That’s the whole reason why people who aren’t Canucks fans (see: Puckdaddy) are suggesting Bure should be in. The most casual hockey fan in the early to mid 90s would probably know four players… Gretzky, Lemiuex, Hull and Bure. If you look up ‘Pavel Bure’ on youtube, you get 519 hits. For ‘Theoren Fleury’ or ‘The Fleury’ you get 233. For ‘Doug Gilmour’ you get 306… and I’m sure it would be much less than that if it weren’t for Leafs Nation.
Anyway, that’s my case, for what it’s worth.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 16, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
6 All-Star games for Bure, by the way, in 12 seasons, to Gilmour’s 2 in 20 seasons.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 16, 2010 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions
By the way, when he’s eligible I would also strongly support Theo for the Hall, with all that he’s accomplished in his career. I would pick him over Gilmour.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 16, 2010 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Gilmour more than scoring
Faceoffs , PK, team leadership. Yet when it comes down to the points Gilmours career ppg is almost the same as Bure’s – except he played(much) longer. Your argument that Bure was a better offensive player just doesn’t hold water.
All star games do not count. Flashy sells – and so does the fact that you must pick a player from each team. The end of year All Stars often interchange wingers right and left so you get a little slack there. Meanwhile Gilmour had a little bit of competition at centre from Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Yzerman , Francis, and Sakic for those 1st and 2nd team votes.
Again – I argue to you – the only thing Bure had on Fleury was flat out speed. Did he score more goals? No
More points >? Not even close
PPG? – almost the same except Fleury played the equivalent of 4 more seasons.
Youtube hits might be a measure of flashy play but not necessarily of winning. How many Bryan Trottiier hits do you think you’d get on youtube ?
by PrairieStew on Jun 16, 2010 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Gilmour before Bure I can agree with. And that’s not being pro-Leaf either
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 17, 2010 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Gilmour played in an era when people scored ridiculous amounts of points. Bure, in his era, was an offensive star, whereas Gilmour, in his era, was not. He was very good, he was hugely popular in Toronto and medium-huge in Calgary and St. Louis before, but not a league-wide star. Being a league-wide star has value.
Of course All-Star games count. Especially when it comes to forwards. Are you kidding? Sorry if you don’t like them, but they absolutely say something about who is consistently thought to be the best in the game over any period when it comes to offense. And offense is a very important part of the game. Your point about wingers vs. centres is valid, but to discount All-Star appearances all together I just think is wrong.
And further, Bure had waaaaaay more goals per game than Fleury or Gilmour. You seem to ignore all the stats I throw at you about goals. If you’re willing to talk about details like Faceoffs, PK, team leadership, how can you not acknowledge that? You know, scoring goals is very important. You can win games without a good PK or faceoffs or ‘leadership’, but you can’t win without scoring goals. Bure led the league in that category THREE DIFFERENT SEASONS.
Further, scoring memorable goals, or impressive goals, or flashy goals, or whatever you want to call them, is a valuable contribution to the sport, I’m sorry you don’t appreciate it. I certainly did opening round game 7 of ’94 :)
I’ll conclude with this… some career stats for you:
Gilmour: 0.31 goals per game
Fleury: 0.42 goals per game
Bure: 0.62 goals per game.
Fleury in his best full season, 1990-1991, scored 0.64 goals a game, which is basically the same number that Bure had for his entire career!
Anyway, if it were up to me, I would be 50-50 on Gilmour for the HOF (although that may in part be my anti-leaf bias), and I would pick Fleury for sure when he’s eligible. But if there was only one spot, I’d choose Bure before either.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Dude – they played in the same era. Gilmour started before Bure and ended at the same time
You say Gilmour was not an offensive star – but didn’t he have just as many 100 point seasons as Bure ? Do you only award HOF spots to guys who score goals? I agree – Gilmour was more than offense – yet he contributed just as much as Bure did on the offensive side. PPG is .96 for Doug and 1.1 for Bure for career – except Gilmour played twice as many games !!
You want to compare Bure’s 12 seasons to Gilmours first 12 – essentiall 20 -32 years old for both ?
Bure 779 points in 702 games; Gilmour 969 point in 900 games 1.1 ppg to 1.08 ppg. Note the 200 more games played, way more durability.
Bure scored 60 in a year when he finsished 5th in goal scoring ,and 60 again when a nobody like Sheppard scored 53. 60 was his high water mark , yet during his time Hull scored 86, Selanne and Mogilny 76, Lemieux 69, Robatille 63 and Jagr 62. Was he one of the best goal scorers of the 90’s – absolutely but not the best of the 90’s. I think it is difficult to give a Hall spot to someone whose claim to fame is one of the best goal scorers of part of a decade.. If he had 2 MVP’s he is in. If he had one MVP and a Cup – he’s in.
Fleury’s contribution also more than points – he’d get his face beat in to score or to make a play in the corner so someone else could. Didnt see Bure doing that.
Using the same comparison – first 12 years Fleury 804 games 406 goals 482 assists = 825 points 0.5 GPG 1.02 PPG. Again Bure’s GPG and PPG only slighty better -so you can argue all you want about him being a dominant offensive force, but the real story is he is only marginally better than Fleury and not better than Gilmour for those prime years. He didn’ t play as long as either never won the big hardware.
The standard needs to be tough 500 goals and 1000 points used to be a guarantee – but to me it no longer is – you need to bring something else. Multiple MVP’s or Cups with those stats. Under that standard I would probably exclude Lanny and Joe Mullen too, except Joey had 3(?) Cups.
Bure definely burned bright for a few years but really not that much better than those of his time. IF he had led in goals 6 times in 12 seasons instead of 3 – even without an MVP or Cup – maybe you could make the argument he was the best goal scorer of his era.
Dude…
Bure scored 60 goals twice. Once in his 2nd season in the NHL (when he scored 110 points). Which placed him 5th in league for goal scoring, yes. But it was his 2nd season! Fleury 2nd season… 63 points. Gilmour 2nd season… 57 points.
Bure went on to score 60 goals again in his 3rd season, which DID lead the league in goals. Gilmour 3rd season… 53 points. And by the way, the Art Ross trophy in Gilmour’s 2nd and 3rd season was won with 215 and 208 points. So that tells you about the era.
Fleury did score 51 goals and 104 points in his 3rd season, his best, which is one of the many reasons I would absolutely support him for the HOF. But let’s not forget that year Brett Hull had 86 goals. And this was still 1 year before Bure entered the league.
Gilmour scored 90+ points (the modern standard for ‘star forward’ I would argue) 4 times in his career. All between 1987-1994. Bure did it 5 times, all between 1993-2001. The Art Ross winners in those 4 best seasons for Gilmour had between 183-130 points. 2 of the 5 90+ point Bure seasons overlapped with Gilmour’s last 2, but the other 3 were in seasons in which the Art Ross was won with 96, 102, and an impressive 121 for Jagr (only Sakic also cracked 100 that year). Bure won his 2nd and 3rd goal scoring title in those seasons, in that era. How can you argue that Gilmour and Bure were contemporaries in terms of offense?
My basic argument is not that the other qualities you cite aren’t important. I’m just saying goal scoring is a VERY important quality. And I do think Bure was the best overall at it for a 10 year period, even if he only had 5 full seasons in those 10 years. That to me, along with his rookie of the year, his international career, and all the excitement he brought to the game, is reason enough that he should be in the Hall.
And like I said, Fleury should be too. And I’m a maybe on Dougy.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
The argument that Bure was the best goal scorer of the era is to me pretty thin. He led the league 3 times in 12 years in an era where lots of guys put the puck in over 60 times. His Florida seasons were when things were getting tighter – so I could accept the argument that he was THE dominant goal scorer for 2 years.
I get it – Bure had more offence than Gilmour – but my point in comparing the 12 seasons is to show that it is a hell of alot closer than what you wish to point out on the offensive side – and we all agree that Gilmour’s game was more than just offense.
Gilmour played twice as many games as Bure – and though longevity is not the only factor it clearly is a factor, you have to be good enough to make the team every year. Gilmour is 17th all time in points – Bure is 63rd in goals.
Bure’s health ( and for that matter Lindros’) works against him – it’s unfortunate but too bad HOF is not awarded on what could have been.
If Bure had won a Cup and Gilmour had not – then this would be closer. The HOF committee places huge value on championships. Goal scoring is very important – but winning is way more important. I wonder what the winning percentage of the teams they played on are ? My bet is the Gilmour is way ahead.
This is not so much a rant against Bure but for a higher standard. A couple of MVP’s at least please if you don’t have top 25 career numbers or a couple of Cups. Jose Theodore had 2 pretty dominant years – was the best goalie in the league – but is he a Hall of Famer ? No Cup, not likely top 25 statistically – no entry to the Hall.
Lindros, Martin St Louis and Joe Thornton are MVP’s that might not make the Hall either – how can you justify a guy with low career numbers, no Cup and no MVP ?
by PrairieStew on Jun 17, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Because, like I said, Bure had 5 seasons and an era where I and other believe he was the best goal scorer. And I and others believe he was one of the most exciting players within that period. I’m fairly certain no one whose career-prime overlaps with Bure’s (as in between 93-2001) can compete with him in goals per game in that era. And he has bona fide first-class international and Soviet League credentials.
Anyway, I think all our arguments are on the table, so this is the point where I accept that we disagree. I understand your points about trying to create a baseline standard, but I think that the excitement that Bure brought to the game is that extra intangible that makes him deserving in a way that none of those other players in your last point have. It’s never been about sheer numbers, but about the emotions and the memories that a player can elicit. Quite frankly that’s the best argument for both Bure and Gilmour.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
93-01 dominance ?
Bure 532 games 355 goals 625 pts
Jagr 657 games 346 goals 859 pts
Selanne 625 g 372 goals 788 pts
Mogilny 587games 312 goal 651 pts
Hull 640 games 347 goals 681 pts
Sakic 635 gm 318 goals 811 pts
Sundin 700 gm 307 goals 736 pts
Bondra 629 gm 342 goals 580 pts
Fleury 673gm 290 goals 715 pts
All those guys close in age to Bure – except Hull who is 7 , Fleury and Bondra 3 years older, This is your selected time for his dominance and he’s second in goals to Selanne and just barely beat a 7 years older Brett Hull and Peter Bondra (!!). Clearly the most fragile – even in his best years. So he wins the GPG total for this 9 year period but he’s only 3-4 goals per season ahead of Sundin ,Sakic, and Moginly and 1 goal per year better than Jagr and Bondra.
International – one World Junior championship – one World championship. On par with Jordan Eberle so far.
Excitement ? Two words- Eddie Shack !
I think both your arguments are great. But Gilmour…man, that guy changed a team’s fortunes around for a long time. He was a fearless captain. Bure, for the most part, was a selfish floater with massive offensive talent. Gilmour overall was a better player.
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 17, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I said goals per game. Clear leader in that! You seem to hold his injuries and thus limited play against him, which is fair enough, but you’re conflated the argument about his ability by saying he scored less goals than player X or Y, without acknowledging that he played quite a few less games. That’s just unfair. You’re just layering everything on top of your ‘he didn’t play enough, tough beans’ argument, which is a fair enough argument, but it’s simply a different argument!
If you take their goals per game totals for that span and multiply it over 82 games, aka a full season, here’s what you get:
Bure: 54.7
Selanne: 48.8
Bondra: 44.6
Hull: 44.5
Mogilny: 43.6
Jagr: 43.2
Sakic: 41.1
Sundin: 36.0
Fleury: 35.3
I absolutely stick with my point. Although he played a half dozen full seasons, within that decade of play he was easily the best goal scorer. The only player in his league, as far as goalscoring was concerned, was Selanne, and even Selanne would average 5 goals less per full season than Bure.
Second, Eberle never won the World Championship. Bure did. Eberle doesn’t have the WJC goal scoring record. Bure does. So I see a huge difference between the two. And Bure has two Soviet championships with the Red Army.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
And I was just talking about World Championship victories. If you’re going to say “Eberle played in the World Championships” even though he didn’t win a medal (let alone gold)…. then I would also add Bure is a two time Olympic medalist, with a silver and a bronze, and in 1998 was named the forward of the tournament. And he has World Championships silver to add to that previously mentioned gold.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
He was potentially the best goal scorer over that 9 years. I can’t give HOF for potential.
GPG is great if you can count on the guy actually being in the game. Bure’s career too short in terms of years and even in his best years – he played 10- 15 games fewer per year than his contemporaries.
My point with Eberle -s that 2 int’l championships for Bure actually looks kind of weak over 15 years – especially since he only played about 60 NHL playoff games.
It may be the HHOF but it is very NHL centric – and I would have thought Bure would have had more int’l cred than 2 championships
Like I said, your basic point is that he didn’t play enough, not that he wasn’t good enough. That sums up basically your entire argument, though you keep trying to hide it in every response to my arguments about performance and stats. I accept it on its own merits that someone who was injured a lot and had a very short season just doesn’t cut it. I disagree in this case. But I really do think that’s the entirety of what you’re disputing with me.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I saw that and thought the same thing
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 17, 2010 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions
quite a few things happening in Penticton…
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Stanley Cup to go to the Canucks.....
Road Trip!
I like the Young Guns style tournaments. Five teams, eh? There’s a slew of good players on those teams, too.
The link for the Ducks’ third jersey is dead, so here it is…
"Maybe subconsciously [Jason Kendall] feels the need to throw the ball in the outfield since he can’t hit it there." - AJaha25 on Kendall leading the Royals in errors
Oh god
seriously?
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, he’s talking about that one. I just took out the cache sequence in the URL
"Maybe subconsciously [Jason Kendall] feels the need to throw the ball in the outfield since he can’t hit it there." - AJaha25 on Kendall leading the Royals in errors
Is that actually
the third jersey?
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Right click
open in new tab/window.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jun 16, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Theres no link to right click…
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
yeah, I fixed the link in the post, sorry I forget to mention that
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 17, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
the link Sean has up there is fine.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
Still waiting for the Stanley Cup to go to the Canucks.....
I’m split on him going into the HoF, but I can’t see him going up into the GM Place rafters after the way he left town.
"Maybe subconsciously [Jason Kendall] feels the need to throw the ball in the outfield since he can’t hit it there." - AJaha25 on Kendall leading the Royals in errors
I was kidding but…
I’m torn on the HOF and I’m sure he shouldn’t have his jersey retired. OK, if Cam Neely and Pat Lafontaine can get in then so can Bure.
by Sean Zandberg on Jun 16, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
LaFontaine was truly something special too. He was amazing.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 16, 2010 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed, I didn’t appreciate the way he left. In fact, I hated him for it, and I had a certain degree of schadenfreude every time he got injured with the other teams.
Los Angeles, CA
Yeah I was hurt over that for quite some time. But as the years have passed, my memory for all the awesomeness that he was while wearing #10 is far stronger than my memory of his departure. The sheer awesomeness that was Pavel is probably what got me in to hockey… although it was bound to happen at some point I’m sure, but I was 8 during his rookie year. I’ll always appreciate the guy.
by Beantown Canuck on Jun 17, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
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