What Is Mason Raymond's Worth?
by Sean Zandberg on May 18, 2010 12:00 PM PDT
in Free Agency
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PrintIt's funny what a difference a year can make. Last July I wondered if Mason Raymond was poised for a breakout season. I had mentioned:
Raymond is not a 3rd line checking winger. He needs a more prominent scoring role. He is also in the final year of his contract, and makes $760,000 this season. He is going to do everything to prove himself this year, starting with cursing Demitra's groin. While he's at it, he may as well curse Bernier's hands.
Well that mostly came true. But to Raymond's credit, he didn't need the failure of others to excel. The 24 year-old hauled ass by his own accord, having a career year (25 goals and 53 points in 82 games this season). Raymond's ice time jumped nearly 4 minutes per game on average and he saw a hell of a lot of time on the Canucks' second line.
MayRay put out a hell of an effort this season. He was stronger on his feet , his shot was a pin-pointed rocket and his game was overall more aggressive than last season. He was also banged around quite a bit but kept getting up like the feisty bugger that he is.
Here are some MayRay stats to digest:
-6th on the Canucks' forwards with time on ice.
-He played every game this season and the playoffs
-He faced opposing teams' top units most of the season, finished an even 0.
-Let's face it, playing with Ryan Kesler and Mikael Samuelsson for most of the season doesn't hurt.
-He had 64 hits in 82 games. That's more than Kyle Wellwood! I jest.
-3rd on the Canucks with shots on goal, 6th on the team in missed shots, and 12th on the team in shooting percentage.
-3rd on the team with takeaways
-6th on the team in points and goals.
So here is my "beef": THE PLAYOFFS. In 12 playoff games this season Raymond had 3 goals and 1 assist. In 22 career playoff games with Van he only has 5 goals and 7 points. Of course, he didn't have a prominent role in the 2008-09 playoffs, and his centerman Ryan Kesler was injured in this year's playoffs. But let's not make too many excuses, right? Well, maybe. Mason is 24 years old. Seemingly the biggest way he makes players around him better is if he buries his scoring chances when the puck is passed to him. He seems more of a sniper than playmaker.
Put 10 more pounds on, Raymond, and let's see what you got. And keep shooting! Generally he is listed as 6 feet tall and about 170 pounds. I think he's pushing 185 right now, at least. The way he likes to barge into the opponent's zone, I'd like to see him be a bit stronger when cutting to the net and even along the boards.
To his credit, I have lost count as to how many penalties Raymond drew this year due to his work ethic and especially his speed.
Unless Mike Gillis sees a bonafide keeper here, Mason's case is going to arbitration this summer.
Play the armchair GM. What would you do? What kind of deal would you sign Raymond to? I'll tell you my POV: Go for a 2 year deal at about $2 million per season. If they don't bite on that let an arbitrator decide.
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Much will depend on how happy Raymond is in Vancouver. A $2mil/season deal may be possible, especially with the precedent of the Burrows comtract, but he may be interested in testing the waters. Arbitration will most likely tend toward a number the Canucks organization can live with, especially since he has only the one season with good numbers. Of course he is also young, talented and his numbers have increased every year as his ice time has increased.
As for your point about him gaining weght, well, he is still young enough for that to be possible. Given that his success is based on his speed he needs to be careful about making changes to his routine or his physique that might impact that though – can’t kill the golden goose.
"Oscar, there is a conspiracy of silence about my work! What should I do?"
Oscar Wilde - "Join it, my dear fellow"
by ElectricWombat on May 18, 2010 12:16 PM PDT reply actions
I wouldnt’ pay him 3M just yet, we are hoping we could get 3M worth of performance from him, but that doesn’t mean he is worth it right yet.
Big break out season, so he’s in line for a raise, but having had only done it for a year, I’m not sure he deserves 3M, and don’t let the guys on TSN tell you otherwise! Maybe he can sign a 2 year deal like Sean suggested, and strike it rich the next time. He’s still fairly young, and if he continues to progress, a 3-4M deal is not out of the question.
by Vancouverguy on May 18, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I could definitely see him on the block for some blueline help. In my mind, Raymond and Grabner bring the same skillset and roles to the table. Each of them would be an excellent 2nd-line winger on this team, but we already have Samuelsson on one wing. So I feel like one of them will get traded away this summer. Personally I like Grabner better, I think he has more upside – nothing against MayRay, just my own preference.
Contributor to Nucks Misconduct
Also, check out my blog 'Nucks and Pucks or follow me on Twitter
No more than 2 mil, if that.
Burr and Sam put up better numbers and may rays still an rfa. Maybe you break 2 if it’s long term, but 3 years at 1, 1.5, 2 would be what I’d offer.
Raymond is worth $2.5 million....thanks to Kesler
Sometimes the second line of Vancouver had the magical ability to turn into a checking line instead of a scoring threat, especially in the playoffs. Raymond’s speed is a blessing as long as he also uses it on the defensive end. Raymond may actually be better suited to spend some time with the Sedins (but who wouldn’t). The speed of that line would keep other teams off balance.
Grabner-Kesler-Raymond would be a fast line with little physical presence.
On another note...
RT @DarrenDreger: Scott Arniel will interview for the coaching job in Atlanta at the end of the week.
Kinda saw this coming. Noooooooo!
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Another O/T
LCD Soundsystem has a new cd out today. I mean to listen to the whole thing, but I can’t get past the first song.
1984 called
They want their pop music back…
J/K, it was pretty cool, 80’s europop sound and all.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
Love their videos, hahah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdRaf3-OEh4
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
If he pays the team 400 bux and a bag of pucks, he might be a good deal.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
Yes
Why not? He can score, and worst case you bury him in the minors. I actually think a $1m/1yr deal could have benefit for the Canucks.
Can’t believe I’m saying that.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
god yeah. demitra’s no great shakes, but to get an average NHL forward for a milli is a deal you take every damn day.
by Passive Voice on May 18, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Fuck Demitra. Stop talking like that, haha. He’s a gutless shitbag. He needs to go the fuck away. FAR AWAY! You don’t win Cups with a turd like him on the roster. Admit it.
by Sean Zandberg on May 18, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you win Cups by constructing your roster in a way that gives you the best chance to win.
Demitra on the PP (but not on the point) and giving you a scoring touch on the 3rd line seems like a reasonable use of a million bucks.
That said, I am a big proponent of a stars and scrubs approach to roster construction in the cap world, which basically means you invest almost all your money in your top 6 F and top 4 D, but I don’t mind having a bit of scoring depth (and a 1 million Demitra seems like reasonable scoring depth).
Ideally, I want my 3rd/4th lines to cost me a max of 5-6 million (lower is better…I’d prefer a 3rd line of 3-3.5 and 4th line of 2-2.5). Demitra at 1 million works for me.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
With the deals
the Sedins and Kesler, not to mention Burrows, are on we can afford to spend more on our 3rd line. Or on our top 4 D if trades can be made. I would still love to see Gillis make an offer of around 2 million a season for Andrew Ladd.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Would he come?
Kes and him hate each other.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
He's from Maple Ridge
and from my experience players who hate each other get over that stuff really quickly. They go from hating each other to loving what each other brings to the table every night.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Well then sign that mofo!
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope
he wasn’t even average this past year. And he disappears in the playoffs. I don’t care if he is free I would rather have someone else. He isn’t going to crack the top 6 maybe even the top 9. Why have Demitra on your 4th line? What does he bring to that role?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
absolutely squat…and a bunch of hurt pride
by Sean Zandberg on May 18, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
No.
Demo was banned from touching a Canucks jersey when he gave up that puck to Dave Bolland and decided to become an ALL AROUND TERRIBLE HOCKEY PLAYER, who gets paid 4 mill to be absolutely horrendous.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Could depend on other RFAs from
Raymond’s draft class. James Neal, Latendresse, Abdelkader are all also RFAs. Second round picks like Raymond and the first two have similar numbers, goals wise at least. If Neal and Latendresse get overpaid it might be hard to get value for Raymond.
David Bolland was a second round pick the year before and he will be earning a little over 3 million next year. He had just 19 goals last year before signing that deal. David Booth, another second rounder from 2004, is on a deal that pays him with a cap hit of 4.25 million, and he had 22 and 31 goals the seasons before signing that extension.
Loui Eriksson was a second round pick in 2003. He has an extension kicking in next season, after seasons of 36 and 29 goals, that pays him at a cap hit of 4.3 million a year. David Backes was also a second rounder in 2003 and is on a deal with a cap hit of 2.5 million after seasons of 13, 31 and 17 goals. So those are some comparables to consider.
How much is Raymond worth? Probably north of 2 million.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:20 PM PDT reply actions
Good Catch
on bringing in the comparables from his draft class. Those comparisons will be made, and Raymond will certainly be compared favourably with Backes. I’m actually interested to see what Detroit will do With Abdelkader too.
"Oscar, there is a conspiracy of silence about my work! What should I do?"
Oscar Wilde - "Join it, my dear fellow"
by ElectricWombat on May 18, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
you and your facts. if we get mayray for 2 per, i’ll shit my pants. he has a tonne of ammo for an arb case.
by Passive Voice on May 18, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
What is his ammo?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Samuelsson's contract
Would seem like a reasonable comparable, I think.
2.5 per for 3 years seems about right to me. Anything less than that seems cheap, anything more seems like it might be a bit of an overpayment.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
I think it's a bad comparison
simply because Sammy was a UFA and Raymond isn’t. That makes a difference.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
UFA versus RFA certainly does make a difference, but I’m not sure how that impacts my suggestion.
I said comparable because I thought that it was a good reflection of what Raymond was worth. Similar to Samuelsson, if perhaps a slightly different type of impact. And I think that’s what he gets as a RFA.
If he was a UFA, I think he’d easily get an offer north of $3mil per year.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
Yeah maybe but he isn't a UFA
he is under team control as an RFA and he still has only had one good year. You can’t pay him on the assumption he will do it again or more. You have to try to get him for cheap and make sure he can score 25 or more goals again before offering him the type of money that you are talking about. Paying guys after one good year is how you end up with Jason Blake making 4 million. You don’t want to be like the Leafs do you?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So what do:
a) You think he’s worth, and
b) Do you think he’ll sign for it?
Are you taking issue with my numbers or my wording of comparable versus comparison?
You said yourself he’s worth north of 2 million, and referenced a number of other players.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
He is worth North of 2 million
based on players that are comparable to him. I don’t Samuelsson is one of those players. But the fact that he is an RFA means we should be able to get him under his value for a couple of years. In a best case scenarion he signs for around 2 million maybe 1.6 or 1.8 for 2 seasons and then cashes is on a big payday if his play has earned it. What do I think will happen? I have no idea. Gillis might sign him through 2079 with a cap hit of just 25 dollars a season. You never know.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
lol good Jason Blake/Leafs reference.
rec’d.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Even more OT:
Vampire Weekend at Malkin Bowl in August!
Time to sell some tickets.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
FFS
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
IT'S A SIGN
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Thanks 87! I just told my cousin they’re coming, it made her day!
by kiyotok on May 18, 2010 2:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I am in town
June 18th- 27th…any good concerts in that period?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
The Offspring, Star Wars in Concert, Iron Maiden, David Usher, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons (ha), Roonie, Aziz Anzari’s Dangerously Delicious tour, and lotsa International Jazz Festival gigs.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
I’m not a big comedy guy, but I saw Aziz Ansari at Sasquatch last year and he was hilarious. Even better than Zach Galifianakis! (yes I had to google his last name)
He’s funnier than Lone Wolf Satchel Man?
If only it weren’t so expensive. I love him in Parks and Recreation.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Tom Haverford!
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 19, 2010 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow, I mispelled Rooney. Failure.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Rooney's first album was OK
have they done anything since?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
3 albums since their debut.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Are they good though?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve liked what I heard. First album still tops it for me. Reminds me of The OC, and I’ll never hate it.
Mumford & Sons on Fallon tonight BTW. Questlove says their drums and banjo set-up is very impressive.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Love M&S
good thing my PVR records Fallon every night.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
oooh, when and where is the Star Wars in Concert? i’ve seen the ads for those and it looks awesome.
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
June 22/23 @ GM Place.
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
damn it, i have classes both those days, and final exams for 2 courses that week!
Nucks Misconduct contributor.
Also on Twitter.
In Celebration:
Count the cameos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bccKotFwzoY
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
I'm sorry
but these guys both look and sound like an even lamer (if it’s even possible) version of good charlotte, with even less balls.
Guess I’m getting old, but what’s considered ‘rock and roll’ today just sounds like so much gutless elevator music to me. Arcade Fire, Death Cab for Cutie, this…whether it’s good or not, it’s certainly not rock and roll. It’s like…emo without the emo!
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
Heh, no, Good Charlotte is what the last Linkin Park album sounded like.
by Passive Voice on May 18, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL…OK that was funny shit right there and got rec’d.
But I can’t say I ever thought Linkin Park was all that great shakes. I liked the first single, then it was…EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SONG…“waaahhh I’m not good enough for my daddy, waaaahhh I’m a badass but it’s my parents fault”. It’s like the suburban-white-middle-class-no-actual-abuse-just-self-image-issues version of korn.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
by Twitchy2010 on May 18, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
i was maaaaaaaaaaaaaad into them when i was in, uh, grade seven.
by Passive Voice on May 18, 2010 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
When I was in grade 7 pop punk wasn’t even a twinkle in Henry Rollins’ eye…heck Never Mind the Bollocks had been out for all of 2 years. I was maaaaaaaaad into Kiss tho, which was probably the 1979 version of good charlotte… wait, no, that would have been the bay city rollers. “I I I I just can’t wait… I I I I got a daaaaaaate…”
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
Rec’d for the FOTC in your sig!
I take it you were raised by a rapper and rhino that dated and subsequently procreated?
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
Aint no party
like my nanna’s tea party, hey ho
Be more constructive with your feedback, please.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 19, 2010 2:13 AM PDT up reply actions
arcade fire is terrible
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem is if you try to put music into
categories and label it you are missing the point. Who cares if it is or isn’t “rock n roll” or “emo”? Listen to it and if you like it it’s good and if you don’t it isn’t. I get really annoyed when people label music, especially wrongly, and compare one band to another.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Hear, hear…or is it here, here? I agree with Section. I used to get sucked into that whole ‘if it’s got pianos in it, it’s crap’ mindset. Now, if I like it, I like it, regardless of ‘genre’. Too much good music can get missed by limiting one’s soundscape. Being older, I can still enjoy the stuff I grew up on, while embracing new music. It’s a good place to be.
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
i love the idea of Lil Jon as a french-speaking tennis coach. he always tells the truth, you know.
by Passive Voice on May 18, 2010 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I know I will sound like a hater.
But I find Vampire Weekend to be very overrated.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Same here, but it’s marketing genius! Vampires are super popular right now and … well… who doesn’t love the Weekend!?
You
might have something here.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Vampire weekend was around before twiligth though. I think they’re good but not great. They were better more underground, I don’t like it when there bands get mainstream…underground is best
by kiyotok on May 18, 2010 9:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Sweatshop Union tomorrow.
Shad this summer, The Swell Season in August.
Those are my concerts for the summer.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Canucks need grit.
I like a lot of the team, no doubt.. Raymond a great player, but the canucks need some of your more average beard-growing, and dont laugh, but the edmonton oilers or calgary type of guys, i was thinking 1-2 wingers and a defenceman.
We do need more grit
thbut not on the top 6. Or at least not at the expense of proven goal scorers in the top 6.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Bernier
is a bottom 6 guy with some size (once we give him a pay cut)… but does he play physical enough?
Didn't he lead the team in hits this year?
He is fine for the 4th line if he is making half as much as he made this past year. But he is under contract for next year at 2 million so he needs to be moved IMO.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree, but...
I hear about guys wanting to trade away Obrien and Bernier and then the same guys saying we need to get some more size on our team. I’m not saying this is what you’re saying, but we’re not going to get bigger by trading Bernier away, unless its for a big oaf that can’t score… and we already have one Hordichuck .
What scenario do you have in mind?
(by the way, spell-check suggests I change Hordichuck to one of these options: Woodchuck, Harpischord, Horticuture, Chuckhole)
lol chukhole
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
The desire to get rid of Bernier
has everything to do with his contract. You can get what Bernier gives for cheaper.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, thats a good point. We should cut him loose. It just seems like he’s on the verge of becoming something and then he just never does.
It’s like playing the slot machine.
I have said it before
he isn’t going to develop hands if he hasn’t done so already. He is a big body who hits people. You can get that on your 4th line for league minimum. You don’t need to pay someone 2 million a year to hit people. By comparison, Burrows makes 2 million too.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
True
I remember Bernier being one of the Canucks who stepped up in the playoffs last year… but yeah not a $2 mil step up.
What do you think of glass?
I think he is decent
and could be a 13th forward. I don’t think you win a cup with Glass on your 4th line full time.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Please resign.
1.6-2 mill a year, 2 years. Now.
"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan
by Chuckles Canuckles on May 18, 2010 5:08 PM PDT reply actions
I'd be Overly surprised if under 2 million
Burrows mentioned taking a pay-cut last year to benefit the team when he accepted 2 million a year. Raymond pretty much had as good of a year as Burrows did last year, except he was playing with the twins. I would expect it to be around 2.5-3 million a year. I’d also like more than a 2 year deal, perhaps 5 years 12.5 million or something like that.
We gotta keep our Canadian boys as long as we can!
I don't see anyway
Raymond would sign that long for that little. If he is going to sign a multi year deal that gets him into his prime years he is going to want to be paid more than 3 or 4 million. He will feel he will be worth that money by the end of the contract if not sooner. That’s what he would want. Maybe you could do 5 years with an average cap hit of 3 million a year by back loading it. I see him signing a 1 or 2 year deal for around 2 or 4 million.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 18, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
OK then
let me put it this way: all three of those bands are shit almost on a scale of shittiness that nears coldplay. Better, you pretentious jackass?
:P j/k about the last part of course, I don’t think you’re a pretentious jackass…music is endlessly subjective and one man’s shit is another mans gold.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
by Twitchy2010 on May 19, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Reply intended above? :P
"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"
- Dallas Stars Forum
by eightyseven on May 19, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not pretentious
I’m a philistine.
But no I mean you can like or dislike whatever you want musically. Whatever floats everyones boats is fine. I just don’t get the labeling. I like all kinds of music and I am not sure what to call any of it.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Oops reply fail indeed. I agree about labels, but rock and roll is kind of an all encompassing one which includes a bazillion and 3 sub-genres. What bugs me is certain sub-genres that just aren’t rock and roll being included in there. Smoboy…instrumentation doesn’t make me dislike music…heck I’m a huge fan of ben folds, numerous jazz and psuedo classical recordings AND early elton john. What makes me dislike music is when it’s bland. Even music which is dynamically flat can have some pepper in it, and certain bands of a style which i’ve slammed more than once just don’t have that. (to my ears) Conversely, a band like kings of leon, which really does kind of fall into that same fanbase as coldplay and arcade fire etc etc, I have no problem with.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
by Twitchy2010 on May 19, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
But who is including those subgenres in rock n roll?
The thing with Arcade Fire and some other bands is they do have a pretty steady and even tone, especially on the bass and drums side of things. Arcade Fire always makes me want to go marching. But where I get the “spice”, if you will, from bands like Arcade Fire and Coldplay is the lyrics and the way they are sung. Plus when a bass line is kind of repetitive and driving when it changes it’s more effective for me. Like in Rebellion Lies when the strings swell and the bass line changes it has an amazing effect and for me sounds epic. The masters of this may be Doves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaEWlYHrF6w
But I listen to just about anything. I am really into Elvis and Frank Sinatra right now.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Doves. Caught By The River is the song I want to hear when it’s my time to shuffle off this mortal coil.
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Words, Snowden, Black and White Town
they have so many incredible tunes. Too bad they are Manchester City supporters or they would be the perfect band.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps using pianos was a bad example. I wasn’t harping on instrumentation, per se, but on the fact that music can move you, whether it’s RAWK, or rock. Upon reading your post above, I think we’ve reached common ground.
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Maybe we should just be thankful
that there is so much good music that we can all find things that appeal to us. And for the record, there is still LOTS of great music being produced to this day in most “genres” it’s just that most of it isn’t on the radio. You have to dig a little deeper to find it. Now I think I am in the mood for some Rod Stewart and the Faces.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s why I laugh when people say ‘Rock is dead’, or ‘there isn’t any good music left’. Look around a little. Sometimes you find it, and sometimes it finds you.
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Two fabulous things are true of music: 1 People will never agree on every aspect of it and 2 no matter what else happens, metal bands will continue to push the envelope and survive on some level.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
by Twitchy2010 on May 19, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you think metal bands are the only ones that are pushing the envelope?
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Not what I said at all. Nor did I say those were the only two fabulous things about music. Lighten up, not every comment I make is a challenge… only 80% or so.
The artist formerly known as GAHHHHH!
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"I'm not a water dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis, did steve tell you that?" FotC
by Twitchy2010 on May 20, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Whoa,whoa whoa….I was just asking your opinion. Let me re-phrase my question.
Do you think metal is the only genre that pushes the envelope, or do you feel there are others that push it, as well?
I think I like Gahhhhh better. ;)
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Your looking at at least 3 million per.
Probably on a 3 year deal.
Comparables would be Antonne Vermette, who after similar numbers got 2.75 per, and Andre Kostitsyn, who got 3.25 per.
So 3 years, 9 million.
by GelatinousMutantCoconut on May 18, 2010 9:41 PM PDT reply actions
3 million….tough. I might tell him to blow a nut and settle with Grabner in the top 6 instead.
by Sean Zandberg on May 18, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions
The Caps have this guy, Fleischmann. He put up similar numbers and won’t be expensive. You can have him!
But grace can still be found within the gale. With fear and reverence, raise your ragged sail.
by Steckel Me Elmo on May 18, 2010 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Ooo! A project! We like project-problem guys here! Does he have a weight problem? Consider it done!
by Sean Zandberg on May 19, 2010 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
In seriousness, it’s worth it for Nucks fans to see what happens with Fleischmann’s contract (or Caps fans [though I hope Flash is traded] to watch Raymond’s) because will probably set precedent for the other. They put up very similar numbers this year.
But grace can still be found within the gale. With fear and reverence, raise your ragged sail.
by Steckel Me Elmo on May 19, 2010 6:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Who was Fleischmann playing with?
Cause the Canucks could argue that playing with Kesler, who I believe was 14th in the league for assists and 6th or 7th for centers, boosted Raymond and not the other way around.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
A fuck ton of people. Semin, Laich, BMo, Fehr. Even a bit of time with Backstrom and Knuble when Ovechkin was out.
He wasn’t exactly playing with pylons either. He also got force fed PP time because BB doesn’t understand how to properly utilize his personnel.
But grace can still be found within the gale. With fear and reverence, raise your ragged sail.
by Steckel Me Elmo on May 19, 2010 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I think as much as we would love to see Raymond stay here, because of the skillset he brings, enhanced by his speed, the Canucks management would be foolish to not consider trading him while his value is high to fill in the other gaps on the team – specifically the Defense.
Gillis said it himself, that in order to succeed, teams need to have young draft players on their ELCs making an impact at the NHL level. There will be opportunity for his picks – Hodgson, Schroeder – and those of the Nonis/Burke era – Schneider, Grabner, Shirokov – to start contributing next year. I think that the Canucks are counting on it. They will go out and sign some veteran talent to push these guys at training camp, and more than likely we will see 4 of the 5 start with the big club next year.
Much as I love what Raymond brings, I think Grabner can provide that same element, allowing Raymond to be used as a bargaining chip to bring the Canucks a number 1 d-man via the trade route.
You have to remember that Raymond is a UFA
so you have to sign him before you trade him otherwise you are just giving teams the rights to negotiate with him in which case he wouldn’t net much back in return.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
You knew what I meant
I sure wish the R and the U were closer together on the keyboard so I had a reasonable excuse other than typing too fast.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor
by Section 312 on May 19, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
2 years, $5.2 million
For a cap hit of $2.6 million per. You heard it here first ;)
Follow me on Twitter: www.twitter.com/andrew_canucks
by Canuckk on May 19, 2010 2:09 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
and then traded
along with Kevin Bieksa and a draft pick for Shea Weber
(c’mon … a man can dream can’t he?)
are you dreaming and rosterbating at the same time?
by Sean Zandberg on May 19, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
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