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Where to now Mr. Gillis?

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Perhaps this is too soon after elimination or maybe unfair because Mike Gillis hasn't yet shared his assessment, but it's unavoidable: the buck stops with him. If we dare look back at the Nonis years (the invisible hand of the Aquilini's notwithstanding), we often ignore the positives - the Luongo deal, the fiscal responsibility - and lambaste ol' Donuts for stringing together teams that, like many before them, couldn't get it done.

Nonis locked up the old core following the lockout (Naslund, Morrison, Cloutier) and they failed. Following that he gambled big on Luongo and that squad, while much better, also failed. Now his successor has locked up the new core (Sedins, Luongo, Kesler, Burrows) for considerably longer, stood by quietly through two drafts and two deadlines and now has two straight second round exits to add to his resume.

Star-divide

Let's jump back two years ago when Gillis was hired. What was his assessment then and how much progress has this club made?

People will be evaluated on performance. They will be evaluated on whether they are prepared to move forward.

This is good. We heart accountability after all. Many will point fingers at a 12 year contract for a goalie who got pummeled again, but let them point. There will be more talk about yanking the C off him which is legit. Short of that I don't see anyone on the roster who was rewarded a contract they didn't deserve. Oh right Bernier. I can't explain that one anymore.

I don't think this team is close at this particular point...I think there is a good foundation here. I think this team needs to get faster.  It needs more grit. It needs to be more competitive.

Two years later this remains painfully accurate. The foundation is a lot better, but the team itself isn't. Or at least isn't close to the lofty aspirations bestowed onto it. Needs more grit? Talk about ironic foreshadowing. Right around here would be an ideal place to point a finger at Vigneault too.

A couple of very good decisions, or a couple of really bold decisions,  might put this team in a position to win immediately.

A couple of bold decisions? How about just one, especially now with the definition of this team in question, a shattered defensive core and a goalie who gets another summer of running away from mics shoved in his face.

Of course at the time of this quote Gillis had his eyes set on Sundin. Blowing away the competition by eating up all available cap space on a sun setting player who couldn't make his mind up for six months and then played for four is 'bold' in a way. But it didn't work. 

There are always stories we won't know about what Gillis tried and failed at, be they on the phone, at the draft table, at the deadline. But that's the story with every GM so let's hold him accountable to the facts: 

-2010-

-2009-

-2008-

  • 12/18 - Mats Sundin - F - Signed
  • 10/10 - Alex Edler - D - Contract extended, four-year contract
  • 10/8 - Cody Hodgson - F - Signed
  • 10/7 - Shane O'Brien - D - Traded (Four-player trade)
  • 10/7 - Michel Ouellet - F - Traded (Four-player trade)
  • 10/1 - Dan Gendur - F - Signed
  • 9/2 - Lawrence Nycholat - D - Traded for Ryan Shannon
  • 7/24 - Nathan McIver - D - Re-signed
  • 7/24 - Zach FitzGerald - D - Re-signed
  • 7/24 - James Sharrow - D - Re-signed   
  • 7/24 - Rick Rypien - C - Re-signed
  • 7/24 - Ryan Shannon - F - Re-signed
  • 7/24 - Mike Brown - F - Re-signed
  • 7/15 - Jason Krog - F - Signed
  • 7/11 - Pavol Demitra - F  - Signed, two year contract
  • 7/11 - Rob Davison - D - Signed
  • 7/4 - Mark Cullen - F - Signed
  • 7/4 - Steve Bernier - F - Traded for 2009 third round-pick and 2010 secound-round pick
  • 7/3 - Curtis Sanford - G - Signed
  • 7/3 - Alexander Bolduc - F - Signed
  • 7/3 - Ryan Johnson - F - Signed, three year contract
  • 7/1 - Darcy Hordichuk - F - Signed, three year contract
  • 6/26 - Kyle Wellwood - F - Claimed off waivers
  • 4/24 - Mike Gillis - GM - Hired!

I have to stifle a facepalm that the first two acquisitions are players I spend so much time trashing. But scan the list and extract what you will. The strengths are resigning some guys at bargain bin prices (Burrows and Edler), stockpiling prospects and wasting little time inking the next generation like Hodgson, Schroeder and Connauton.

Gillis danced with the devil with Raycroft but it worked. He gambled on Bernier and his steady progression towards Brad Isbister territory has flop written all over it.

Trades brought in Ehrhoff and SOB but that's where the list ends. Samuelsson is the walk off home run of the FA group. Each summer he's targeted an ex-client in Demitra and Schneider and, while hindsight's rarely fair, the best players they were not. After that there's little else to get excited over. Last summer Chicago added Hossa, San Jose got Heatley, the Habs added Cammalleri (and others), the Flyers gambled on Pronger and Boston opted to move Kessel. Many of us await MG's big move or even a few shrewd small ones, especially with the Cory Schneider card out on the table in plain sight.

Maybe most alarming is how he inherited Mitchell and Ohlund and, assuming Mitchell walks, replaced them or bolstered the blueline with little more than projects (Vaananen, Davison, Rome, Alberts and a weird infatuation with Nycholat). There's only so many defensemen to go around the league, but as Chicago showed in consecutive years, it's where Vancouver is most vulnerable. Two years ago it was their strength. Now Salo can't be trusted to lead them, Edler isn't ready and Bieksa is...I don't even know. Michalek, Martin, Hamhuis and Volchenkov are names that many will be gunning for soon and Gillis may have to enter a bidding war whether he likes it or not.

At the end of the day I am going to be evaluated on results...I feel acute pressure already to try and get this team to a point where it is competing for the Stanley Cup.

I wonder how that pressure is feeling now. I wonder what tricks are up his sleeve to rectify a situation where having the top scoring forward, the franchise's most prolific scoring line and Luongo weren't good enough to at least appear respectable and not surrender 21 goals in four losses (stop and ponder that). I wonder if he's ready to make the sacrifices to fix the defense as well as the lack of size and depth up front. Not band-aid solutions either, but ones that increase the likelihood Vancouver could run with the Chicago's and San Jose's of the world.

Before I get a brick thrown at my head, understand I'm quite the fan of Mike Gillis. A tad unorthodox, not from the old boys club, seems to piss off more than a few people, these are all good things. He's performed some aspects of his position magnificently, including making good on the need to make Vancouver an attractive place for other players to join. He has some budding prospects ready. The core (for better or worse) is young and locked up. All in all, things are far from bleak.

But like his team Gillis needs to find his finish. He can't wait for prospects to simultaneously peak, he can't sit back this summer and watch other GM's scoop up talent, he can't be afraid to gamble and move players, he can't dangle the Schneider card forever and he can't watch his team either get worse or suffer a third season of exiting in early May. The West certainly isn't going to get any easier to crack the top eight year to year. He's caught between a rock and multiple hard places. It's time for him to get back to the blunt assessment he started out with and commit to the tough decisions.

Just who are the Vancouver Canucks?

I think we have the best goaltending in the league, I think our defence is in the top five when they’re healthy and I think up front we have better players than people are giving us credit for, but there’s obviously room for improvement...I believe this is very close to turning into a championship hockey team.

Sounds familiar.

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hear, hear
But like his team Gillis needs to find his finish. He can’t wait for prospects to simultaneously peak, he can’t sit back this summer and watch other GM’s scoop up talent, he can’t be afraid to gamble and move players, he can’t dangle the Schneider card forever and he can’t watch his team either get worse or suffer a third season of exiting in early May. The West certainly isn’t going to get any easier to crack the top eight year to year. He’s caught between a rock and multiple hard places. It’s time for him to get back to the blunt assessment he started out with and commit to the tough decisions.

I think part of the bold moves that Gillis could pursue are to early target FA opportunities that more than likely would consider signing in VanCity and trade resources for the chance to negotiate ahead of July 1.

Money is going to be freed with the departures of Demitra, Mitchell, Johnson, Raycroft, Hordichuk, Wellwood, Lukowich & Nycholat. Money will need to be spent to retain Mason Raymond and Schneider and to pay for the ELC of Hodgson, Grabner or perhaps Schroeder (best case).

My take. Spend your money on upgrading the D. Specifically a D-man who can clear the crease and can handle the power forwards that are emerging in the West. If you have to trade one of Raymond or Grabner (same type of player) for some bigger, mobile, hockey smart bottom 6 players or that D-man, then you make that deal.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 12:14 PM PDT reply actions  

More than a rugged defenceman (because you guys really do have them) you need one that can move the puck quickly. Chicago had three and you guys really only had Edler who is emerging as one. Otherwise, those guys handle the puck like it’s a grenade.

And it’s the second straight summer that it’s been the same diagnosis…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on May 12, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Erhoff?

Did you mean Erhoff or Edler? Either of them can move the puck quickly, but I see what you’re getting at…..

by Sharkbeight on May 12, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Salo moves the puck very well too. So we have 3.

I think the biggest problem is that we didn’t have a shut-down D-man (Mitchell) or two. The Hawks had 4 D-zone competent D-men (Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Sopel) to our 2 (Salo and Hoff).

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 12, 2010 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

How fitting

Just saw this on the Province about Demitra:

“It was Demitra’s final shift as a Canuck: Bolland scored on the following breakaway and Demitra, a pending UFA, never got on the ice again.”

Just. So. Incredibly. Fitting.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:30 PM PDT reply actions  

So glad to hear that!

I was just getting irritated with Demitra’s ice time last night and then BAM he gives it over to Bolland for a shortie that Louie could have stopped. I will not miss the drop-passes-to-no-one-in-particular, the complete aversion to physical play, or waiting for him to play like its the Olympics all over again. $4 million saved, let’s hope it’s put to good use.

On a side note, I thought Rypien was handling the puck well so it was hard to see him sit in favor of Pavol.

by CdP on May 12, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

In fairness that play

wasn’t entirely Demo’s fault.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's what happens

when you play a forward as a defenseman

by SteveNux on May 12, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

And that's also what happens

when Wellwood passes to a guy right at the point who ALREADY has a penalty killer right in his face.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

First off, me: lifelong Canucks fan trapped in Sharks territory. (Sharks vs. Black Hawks? Oh, gads, help us all. Can I route for both teams to lose?) New to this board. I like it here.

In order to think about Canucks 2010-11, I think you have to start by looking at the Western Conference 2010-11 here – there are significant question marks and problems with nearly every club who finished below Vancouver this year. Vancouver is in far, far better shape, on the whole.

This seems especially true in the NW Division – the Flames are a mess, Minnesota seems lost, Edmonton is just, uh, yuck. If the Zombie Jets become the real Jets again, and Colorado moves, the division’s gonna get even weaker (all those UFAs and RFAs in Phoenix/Winnipeg – who on earth is going to reup for such a chaotic situation?) Even if they stay in Phoenix and the division does not change, Colorado has some issues as well.

There will be teams in the West that get better (the Kings and St. Louis come to mind), but, given the division, I think you should start off looking at the Canucks as a team that should be good for 100 pts. and a Division title going into next year. That’s not a bad place to start from. This team needs some tinkering, at this point, not a huge overhaul. They are chasing Chicago and San Jose and no one else, in my mind. This team is close. It has the potential to win next year.

I personally think Gillis has to think big here. Almost certainly, he is going to have to overpay a little for the best D-men available. It’s the obvious need, and everyone knows it. If that means moving Schneider, spending too much on a Hamhuis, I think you have to hold your nose and do it. As we’re all painfully aware, you do not get many chances to win championships.

xp

by xp on May 12, 2010 12:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Well stated

We need to get back to the old adage good offense fills the seats and defense wins championships, something like that anyways.

by Sharkbeight on May 12, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

i never heard this saying before, i like it

Too many people bitched about my name, so it is now.......William......HOORAY!!! :)

by My Landed Immigrant status just expired! on May 13, 2010 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Welcome

Trapped in the Bay area? Join the club. I dig the Sharks fans though, they’re pretty rabid for a fan base that gets ignored IMO.

The NW will remain a dog fight between the Flames, Canucks and Avs. But even then the Wild had some good moments this year (the negative against them is their farm is empty) and the Oilers won’t be doormats forever. A few shrewd moves on their end and they’ll be headaches too.

Vancouver may have finished third but they’re still quite a ways back from the the Sharks and Hawks. If I could wave a wand, I would get that defense fixed, get another coach, find another winger and pray that we have a good training camp from Hodgson.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Same here (trapped in Bay Area). I didn’t like the Sharks because of the totally biased TV broadcasters, but I have to look past that and cheer for them, especially as you said, their fans are pretty passionate and that team has suffered enough disappointments that it would be good to see them finally succeed.

by SJKel on May 12, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

D men d men d men. Although there’s really not much out there in free agency.

And if AV isn’t fired THIS TIME well I’ll still be a fan. But I won’t be HAPPY about it.

Fuck.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah

I need to dust off my AV hate for the summer ahead. I doubt they’ll do it, but it reminds me of the Crawford years where the talent then was wasted by his schemes which simply stopped working. I’m seeing more and more of that with AV now.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Two years in a row and you lose exactly the same way…it’s not great. But then again we extended him and all that. I doubt they eat that money. Sighhh.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

The extension made no sense to me.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was bonkers. He hadn’t shown anything last season.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

You have Arniel sitting there, Hitchcock is still bouncing around (ok, he’s not physically bouncing). There are some ways to get fresh blood in there. Since AV has shown up, every part of the Canucks – offense, defense and in net – has been pointed out as the primary flaw. But not the coach?

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hitch might be physically bouncing. his tits probably are.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stop checking his bits out, please.

"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"

- Dallas Stars Forum

by eightyseven on May 12, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

haha. I always enjoyed the mental image of him accepting the Flyers gig with cheesesteak grease all over his face.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

om nom nom moar cheesesteak please

"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan

by Chuckles Canuckles on May 13, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Arniel is interviewing with other people though…I guess it’s possible. Hmmm mmm. You just wonder. How often did he let Quennville out coach him last night with the Sedins/Bolland line match up? UGHHH.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not just Quennville, I think Murray did too.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you’re right. Jeebus.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

When you say "out coach" do you mean "fail to try to get the Sedins away from the checking line"?

If so, I have to disagree. I like the Sedins going out there against the checking line and other teams top lines, I like the 3rd period charge that AV enables them to have, and I like, generally, what he’s done with this team.

It isn’t AV’s fault that the players lost their mind in Games 3 and 4, or that defensive zone breakdowns killed us. That’s on the players.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree about games three and four. That’s totally on the players yes but he establishes the system. He runs the drills, he knows who is on the ice, he knows what buttons to push. All in he’s just as guilty for the meltdowns.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:45 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Please, no Hitchcock. I’m no huge AV fan (still pissed he didn’t dress a 7th dman yesterday) but honestly, have you seen Hitchcock’s history? I don’t mean his win/loss columns, I mean how he absolutely shatters prospects’ confidence, doesn’t trust them and basically throws them under the bus. He does it everywhere he goes, and I do not want him bringing that mess here.

by sunshine and lollipops on May 12, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

you mean

like AV did to Hodgson?

Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair

by yoata on May 12, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously? One inciden for AV vs Hitchcock doing this with every team he has coached? I’m no big AV fan (though he is a nice fellow) as the coach but I would take him over Hitch any day.

by sunshine and lollipops on May 12, 2010 10:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

No Hitch. Ever.

Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.

by Smoboy41 on May 12, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t know that I’m ready to throw AV under the bus yet. Sure, he’s made some mistakes (WHY NO FUCKING 7TH DEFENSEMAN LAST NIGHT????) but overall he has done some pretty good things with the team. He adopted a team with good defense and weak offense, and coached a super defensive system. It worked. He developed some offense and slowly moved it the other way. It worked. I’m not sure why the team seemed to lose heart against Chicago, but I have a hard time blaming coach V for that. Did he get out-coached? Maybe, but not because he didn’t know what was going on, it was more that he put a bit more faith in the heart of certain lines than maybe they had (ahem first line). I don’t think he got ‘out line matched’ so much as he chose another strategy and it failed. Anyone who’s watched the canucks for the past few season knows that if he wants to he can line match 60 minutes..what did shorty call it the other day? “A 60 minute line change”. So, no, Quenneville didn’t out coach him with the matching, but he may have done so with the overall game plan.

AV might be guilty of a bit of overconfidence in both his system and his team. We have seen him make strategic changes after failure in the past tho, and they’ve been successful. I don’t want to give up on coach Vigneault yet. Ask me again if we shit the bed in round two next year, I’ll probably have a very different opinion.

Regarding MG, I think he’s made no more or no less blunders than any other GM’s, and he has done some very good things. Obviously not enough yet, but man…this team has a very bright long term future the way the whole organization has been drafting and developing. I know that’s not all him and some of that attitude may have preceded him, but I don’t think anyone can deny he’s taken it to the next level.

"I carry gas...smoke...and also wear a helmet." Major Douche, USMC
"you'll be playing in england the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Aint no party like my nana's tea party...hey...hoe..."

by GAHHHHH! on May 12, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great Post

YC thanks for the post it actually for some reason has calmed me down and now I can look to the coming off season to see what MG has in store. I just have a feeling he can get the job done, nothing to back that up just a feeling. Shoring up the D seems obvious enough lets just hope he can pull it off this off season, god I hate saying off season now. I gonna go pout now. Thanks again for a great post YC.

by Sharkbeight on May 12, 2010 12:35 PM PDT reply actions  

Oh and take that C off Luongo for fucks sake.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:35 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

rec'd.

"But yeah…like CC…I harbour no ill will." - VancityDan

by Chuckles Canuckles on May 13, 2010 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

our D was not that bad, just really really hurt

…everybody’s always pointing out that Mitchell was hurt, but so were Rome and Lukowich. When healthy we had 5 legitimate top-4 D, even if we didn’t have that obvious top-pair (but few teams do). Alberts/Lukowich as your 8th/9th D is actually a fair amount of depth, I don’t know how many teams have 8/9 guys with that much experience.

We just match up really poorly with Chicago. They’re in Lu’s head, their constant stretch passes make us look silly, and Buffy owns us. But there’s no point in ripping apart everything when we could have beat any other team we had played. Naturally, now that I"ve said this we’ll meet the Hawks next year too and they’ll curb-stomp us again…

by clammy on May 12, 2010 12:37 PM PDT reply actions  

This is true

But our defence is ALWAYS hurt. Gillis knows this.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s amazing to think back in the fall where the team had too many D with Schneider and Lukowich. MG certainly tried to prepare for just this sort of injury streak I guess, but even the guys he picked weren’t the best options either.

This summer he has to find a stud.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

seriously, MG, if you need somebody killed or maimed or sensually massaged or anything to get Marc Staal on board, gimme a call.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m on board with Marc Staal… but at what lengths? XD

What would the Rangers want for him?

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why would they give him up?

Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.

by Smoboy41 on May 12, 2010 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

they absolutely should not. they should probably risk the penalties involved with having Wade Redden whacked before risking the loss of Marc Staal.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, sorry, I was thinking a RFA offer. I was reading up on NBA, and ended up posing that as a sign-and-trade.

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

sorry, i didn’t mean to sound like i was ripping you. i’m totally with you that the canucks should target him—imo, at even extremely high cost. by the same token, i think NYR would be off their rockers to let him go—but i hope they do.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, Sather is still GM, so…

Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.

by Smoboy41 on May 14, 2010 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

We just match up really poorly with Chicago.

That’s a cop-out. We should be able to dance with anyone. There is no good excuse for the team playing that lousy defensively

by Sean Zandberg on May 12, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

And unless Chicago somehow massively implodes we are most likely going to have to go against them for years to get through the west. Ugh. It’s time those losers figured it out.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am NOT being a dick ...

But I don’t think you have really have 5 legit top-4 d-men, and although not all teams have an obvious top pair, I do think all of the true contenders for a conference final need that, let along a team who’s gunning for a Cup.

Again, not being an ass, but I think the first two series this year showed that right now you have 3 second-pairing d-men. There’s youth there, though, too, and that can’t be overlooked.

www.mjt.org

by ChicoMaki on May 12, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

Ehrhoff, Edler, Mitchell and Salo are all legit top 4 guys. SOB and Bieksa probably aren’t but on a lot of teams they would be in that role. So the depth was there. No team is going to overcome the loss of their top shut down guy if 2 of their over top 3 guys get hurt. Salo wasn’t 100% last night and pretty soon after Edler went down the Hawks pulled away. No team is deep enough to compete with the Hawks minus 2 of their top 4 guys.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

“No team is going to overcome the loss of their top shut down guy if 2 of their over top 3 guys get hurt.”

Gil, Markov, Spacek was injured. MA Bergeron was playing bigger minutes. Jacques Martin’s system got it done.

by blaurg on May 12, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK I will rephrase

No team in a conference with good teams is going to overcome the loss of their top shut down guy if 2 of their other top 3 guys then get hurt. Especially against the best team in the NHL the Chicago Blackhawks.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I mean, it’s not like the Habs are going to game 7 with the defending Cup champions or anything.

by jeanshorts on May 12, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the Caps were in the West

they wouldn’t have had anywhere close to the number of points they had in the East this season. And anyone arguing Ovie as the best player in the world is on shaky ground after he and his mates flamed out in the playoffs once again. Oh and the Pens being the defending champs means nothing to me. That was last season. It has no bearing on this season. Right now as we speak, and for most of this season, the Hawks are the best team in the league. I am sure of that.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Uhh

I agree about the Caps. The Southeast is the biggest joke in the league. Which is why I didn’t mention them, because I think their Presidents Trophy wasn’t earned.
And I was referring to Crosby as the best player in the world. You know, the guy who led team Canada to a gold medal and was leading the playoffs in points before Johnny T decided to take over.

by jeanshorts on May 12, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting points

sorry I misunderstood who you meant as best player in the world. But I don’t think the Pens are as good as they were last year. But that’s not the point PK Subban has done a decent job on Crosby in the last couple games.

Crosby didn’t really lead Canada anywhere in the Olympics. He actually didn’t do much most of the tournament. It could be argued that Johnny T was Canada’s best player. But then I am biased cause I have long argued that if I was able to take any player in the league to start a team with it would be Toews.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Either way I just don’t think you were giving enough credit to Habs for playing this well with a depleted D core, against one of the top teams in the league.

by jeanshorts on May 12, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

No probably not

but that’s cause I think the East is generally not that strong and from what I saw of the Caps series it wasn’t as much the Habs being good as the Caps being bad. Maybe that’s biased cause I can’t stand the Habs and their coaches but that’s what I saw. Haven’t seen much of the Pens series.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love Jacques Martin’s system. I wish we’d play that style, whatever it is. But the defense gets taken care of…oh and Halak is the shit

by Sean Zandberg on May 12, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

But you’d have to settle for a LOT of 3-2 games, and I wonder how effective his system is when you’re facing the West. Montreal’s Conference splits must have been less effective?

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

We kinda played that system in 2005-06 I believe.

It very boring to watch and you have to settle for a lot of close (overtime) games.

If you never seen much of the Habs this playoffs, just think of it as how the Wild played under LeMaire.

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 12, 2010 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Someone on commentary made a really good point. They’re shutting down Sid, Malkin and letting the Wingers take their shots. Of course, the Pens don’t have any Wingers who are competent.

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

That was Matthew Barnaby from TSN that said that and he made a good point

by Sean Zandberg on May 12, 2010 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Halak

standing on his noodle got it done.

Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair

by yoata on May 12, 2010 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

For sure, Sect 312, but this is exactly what I meant … Ehrhoff, Edler, and Salo are excellent 2nd-pair defensemen … the 3 to which I was referring. I left out Mitchell due to his status. But ya, he’s back for next season in all likelihood.

It’s that top pairing you’re lacking, and even the acquiring of one top pairing guy, I think, would go a long way to shifting the pairings so you’d be more solid top to bottom.

www.mjt.org

by ChicoMaki on May 13, 2010 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with Chico

The problem isn’t that Salo, Edler, Ehrhoff, and Mitchell are not top 3-4 defensemen, the problem is that they are all number three defensemen.

This is what our team has found terribly misleading for the past who knows how long. We have always had four good guys, but never legitimate 1 and 2 defensemen. Not to mention a usually very injury prone core as well… (Thanks Sammy ;) )

Gillis should have known this last year, and he did nothing. He should have known this at the deadline, and he did nothing. Now our team will do nothing until October.

by T.Haynes on May 13, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry

but I fail to see how Mitchell, Ehrhoff and even Edler wouldn’t qualify as number 2 guys. You put any one of those guys with Keith and they are doing just as much as Seabrook if not more.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Two of those guys have no-trade clauses (Mitchell, Salo).

And who do you think MG should’ve got? It’s not like #1 D-men grow on trees and teams who have them aren’t exactly jumping at the opportunity to move them.

IMO, Nonis left MG with too many unmovable contracts on D (Bieksa, Mitchell, Salo = $9.75M total cap hit). That explains why they couldn’t afford a #1 ($6M+) if one were available.

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 13, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hurt but still need help

Hey guys – flames fan trolling in – and feeling bad for you this morning. We know that feeling losing to Chicago last year with a depleted defence ( Regehr out, Phanuef, Aucoin playing hurt). If those guys are healthy its a different series; the loss prompeted Sutter to completely lose his mind over the next 12 months. Overreacting on acquriing D ( Bouwmeester) at the expense of scoring ( Cammaleri) , then selling Phanuef on the cheap and for some unknown reason acquring Ales Kotalik’s contract ( you think Bernier’s bad ?)

I guess what I am saying is don’t push your GM to overreact. You have a solid base and some good prospects coming; and about $ 5 million to spend. One first pair defenceman might do the trick. There is depth there, and you might consider moving Bieksa, because you can replace his minutes cheaper.

Going in to next year, Chicago has major cap issues and will need to dump at least 3 guys. Detroit may or may not have Lidstrom – if they don’t they need help, and if they do they will probably overpay him. The Sharks will lose Marleau and one wonders how much longer Blake and Nabokov can perform.
Phoenix will take a step back – and so will Colorado. My Flames are too old. I would handicap Vancouver as a conference favourite next year.

by PrairieStew on May 12, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is a very astute post. With Niemi an RFA (and looking at the deal Kari Lehtonen got), they’ll again rely on Huet and a rookie (Crawford), and lose probably like Sharp, Ladd or some other clowns (Byfuglien!? Could our Achilles be gone?), Chicago will be a different team for sure.

by blaurg on May 12, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Chicago

They will resign Niemi – close to $3m . Hjallmarsson too at $1.5. They will try ( and likely fail) to move Huet.That would put them $6 million over with 2 entry level d- men and 3 forwards yet to sign. That means they would need to move over $8 million off the books

by PrairieStew on May 12, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

If they win the cup this year, then all the power to ’em

by Beantown Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is clearly their shot. It is a much,much different team next year.

by PrairieStew on May 12, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you underestimate Hjallmarsson at 1.5M (Unless it’s an option.)

Similar,y Niemi will ask for at least what Lehtonen got, probably close to the 3.5 range, with 4 possible.

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

If that’s the case with Niemi, The Hawks’ll have how much tied up in goalies? 10 mil?

Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.

by Smoboy41 on May 12, 2010 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes. Which makes me smile =).

However, it also means they’re likely going to have to go with Huet and someone untested if they want to add some depth to their team.

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is Niemi’s first year in the league, and he wasn’t even our number 1 until March hit. He’s played well for us, but even if Chicago went on to win it all I don’t think Niemi could command 3.5 or 4 million. It’s possible someone tries to pluck him up with an offer sheet, but that hasn’t exactly been common practice, and I don’t expect it.

On another front, I have a feeling we’ll bury Huet in the AHL. I think it would be a terrible thing to do, really underhanded … but money tends to trump kindness in these kinds of situations.

www.mjt.org

by ChicoMaki on May 13, 2010 6:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ya, and swallow the contract? You gotta do it if you want to keep the roster competitive. That’s a good point.

While Niemi doesn’t have the experience of Lehtonen, he’s already done better, which may contribute to the 3.5M price tag?

by Vancouverguy on May 13, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well put

I wouldn’t mind trading Bieksa for a pick (just to free up the cash to allocate to someone else) and add two defencemen to the mix, but I certainly agree re: not overreacting.

I think most teams would kill for a base that starts with:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
XX-Kesler-Samuelsson
Bernier

Salo-Edler
Ehrhoff-Bieksa
Alberts

Luongo

That doesn’t include Raymond or O’Brien (RFAs). I’ll take that as a starting point. The only “ouch” contract in that group (to me) looks like Bernier (and to a lesser extent Bieksa, but that’s only for 1 more anyways).

I think most teams would kill for that sort of core.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would think Raymond is a given, however O’brien might be allowed to walk, given his troubles. I have been hearing some speculation that there may be more than one RFA given offers of under $1m – because those are not required to give compensation. He might take that to start over, and Canucks may choose to not match.

The rumour I heard was young Oilers ( Gagner, Cogliano) might sign $999 K deals to get out of Edmonton.

by PrairieStew on May 12, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

if they signed $999K deals ...

what would stop the Oilers from matching? I think Tambellini, despite his perceived shortcomings, would leap at a chance to match a small offer like that.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

He would match unless he is tired of their act

The speculation was that the Oil might let some guys walk. It’s weak I know, but when you see a guy regress over 3 years it’s tough to give him a raise.

by PrairieStew on May 13, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for jumping in. A troll you must certainly aren’t !

I wanted to clarify I am not demanding MG do something crazy, I wanted to go back and check what he said was wrong with previous versions of the team and see what he’s done to make things better. It remains a double edged sword to keep saying “we’re so close” to that level. He needs to figure out those last steps, especially after two years of chicago showing us how it’s done.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:51 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Does Edler really count as “bargain bin”? For a dude who’d played only very sheltered minutes (and, indeed, is still playing very sheltered minutes), on a deal that ate up mostly RFA years if I’m not mistaken, is $3.25 really much of a deal?

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 12:40 PM PDT reply actions  

That's fair

Maybe he doesn’t. At the time he was projected (and playing like) a top two-type player so locking him up to a cap friendly deal I thought was one of MG’s better moves. He took a step back this year but they have a lot riding on him. Picture how bad that defense looks if you remove him, as error-prone as he’s become.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hah, so true. I don’t mean to sound like I’m dumping on Edler, who’s still very young and upside-y and stuff.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Edler’s biggest step back appeared to be the loss of Ohlund. Not that I am saying he shouldn’t have been moved. Just saying he was a real good mentor for Edler.

Shove it in your addendum.

by kesrows on May 12, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bingo

I’ve noticed that this year – Edler has really missed Ohlund. That’s why Tampa overpaid for him as well, to be a mentor to Hedman because they’d seen how he had mentored Edler..and I think there was another player as well, but it’s escaping me right now.

by sunshine and lollipops on May 12, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Edler

had a career high in points while having a very mediocre year. He’s still really young and I think he missed Ohlie more than anyone this season. He should be better next year.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Super young for a defenseman. We won’t be reaching his full potential for 5 years and will probably get gradually better throughout that time.

by SteveNux on May 12, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Might i say this...

that I believe Luongo should be on the trading block. Not saying this based purely on this years playoffs but i simply do not believe he is the answer. Look at the teams left today. Not too many with a high priced goalie. Free up some money and get some solid d-men to build around. It is quite obvious Luongo is not the god-sent people thought.

Then again, does he have NTC? I am not as deeply involved in all contracts as some are…

by patrik e on May 12, 2010 12:52 PM PDT reply actions  

He has

a NTC and a ridiculous term. Sadly at this point you’re pretty locked in.

It's all hot bishes, naps, and dance parties

by Alix on May 12, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is the chance to trade him 5 years in.

But it may be the players choice…I know there are two windows in the contract though.

They should be helping him, not thinking of trading him. Why a workhorse goalie that soaks up coaching does not have a f/t goalie coach is just stupid.

Changing that P/T bullspit will probably help with improved focus and technique as well.

Say someone like Allaire and less like Clark.

""I felt last year our guys were ready to take that next step," Vigneault said. "We weren't able to get through Chicago. I feel we're even more ready now. Having gone through that experience, having learned from it. . . we're going to be better prepared to face the challenge ahead of us."

by vancitydan on May 12, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh no! Trade Luongo talk! /plugs ears and runs away

by Sean Zandberg on May 12, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Honestly…just helping a bro’ out with some info.

It would be stupid to trade Luongo.

I expect him to be back stronger next year.

We just need to replace one or two D’ with one superstar type D’, and a cheap young guy.

Some of the depth coming into camp next year and probably making the team will help too.

Gotta love those EL contracts.

by vancitydan on May 13, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hear, hear!

Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.

by Smoboy41 on May 12, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

but but but

I did it on NHL10! I got Seabrook, Toews, Bolland and Kane for Luongo, Bieksa and Wellwood!

/people demanding Luongo getting traded need a dose of reality (or more alcohol)

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah we should get rid of Luongo

and have Crosby and Ovie on our top line. Doughty and Keith as our top D pair. Let’s get it done MG!!!!!

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about

getting Parise as a PK specialist.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

and how about

Jean Beliveau from the dynasty Montreal Canadiens …. he may be old as fuck but he has something like 17 Cups. that experience has to count for something. and what about Jacques Lemaire? didn’t he win one of the top10 game 7’s in NHL history? I hear he is a fine 2 way player.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think that ship sailed last summer. Luongo’s our guy for awhile, through good and band. And, given that he’s signed to a reasonable cap hit, it could be worse.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

band= bad+bland, maybe. not just a typo, no sir.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, the cap hit aint that bad but still frustrating…have a feeling he will be around but maybe not the guy to show the way from the net

by patrik e on May 12, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

His cap hit is lower next year than it was this year by 1.5 mill. In case anyone cares.

by Beantown Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not a fan of the high priced net minder either, but I still believe in him. He may never reach the status of a Brodeur or a Roy but when he’s on he gives them a chance to win and that’s more than a lot of goalies in town have ever given the team.

This is where I do think the ‘C’ needs to come off. He’s a basketcase these past two post seasons. Remember how strong he was against Dallas and Anaheim? We need that guy back. Let him focus on the game and let Kesler lead them on the ice. Best of both worlds.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

High-priced netminder? What’s that now?

www.mjt.org

by ChicoMaki on May 12, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can't shake the idea...

…that Cloutier, Sanford and Brochu were somewhere together watching that series laughing and salted pork products.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

… and Huet texting his taunts from the bench just for giggles: “Hey guys, I make more than Luongo.”

www.mjt.org

by ChicoMaki on May 13, 2010 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right now

Luongo will be 9th on the “goaltender by cap hit” scale for next year.

The list can be found here.

To be honest, I’m not sure I’m a huge fan of the “big money” goalie, but I don’t think 5.3 is that bad for a goalie that has shown the tools to be a top 5 in the league.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

actually

that is true when looking at that list…didnt realize the amount most goalies are signed to…lundqvist was a bust this year IMO and many others are probably worse signings than Luo

by patrik e on May 12, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lundqvist?

The guy from the Rangers? He was a bust? The guy who went 35-27-10 with a .921 save% and a 2.38 GAA with 4 shutouts on a shitty team was a bust?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

didnt realize his stats were that good…everytime i watched on ESPN 360 he had a shitty ass game and was pulled a number of times

by patrik e on May 12, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

He got pulled

a couple of times but mostly because his team was garbage.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haha yep!

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 12, 2010 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, NTC is never going to get waived imo, and frankly as bitter as I am about Luongo right now he can be the goaltender Vancouver anticipated, but he demands a better performing D than we had this last series. I see a few issues with Lou’s game and the first and foremost is that he isn’t very solid in odd man situations.

This goes from the one on one to three on twos. Sure he’ll make monster saves in a lot of cases, but they are usually when he is already in the right position because he can trust his D to be where they should be and doing what they should. Look at the goals he let in in game 6 and you might noticed that on most of them he was cheating. Maybe he was just trying to do more than he needed to, but to me it seems like a trend. I also don’t like him during shootouts for the exact same reason.

The other thing I don’t care for is his blocker seems pretty weak sometimes. That and he seems to have issues with getting over antsy at the worst times.

Worth the money? Mmmm, maybe. If we have the right D then yes. With what we had to work with this postseason no. I’d have been much happier with a 3-4 million dollar guy and another reliable stay at home defenseman.

by MonkD on May 13, 2010 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Twitter lawl
RT @gabeguese: i keep playing nhl10 just to injure dustin byfuglien.
@jpioroda: Is it just me… or are the #Habs the only remaining team in the #NHL playoffs with no #teamcanada player? Me see a #bettman favorite now.

"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"

- Dallas Stars Forum

by eightyseven on May 12, 2010 1:09 PM PDT reply actions  

One of the key differences moving forward now as compared to the Nonis second round exit or the West Coast Express days is that Gillis actually has some blue-chip assets with which to try and make a bold move.

Since you aren’t going to acquire a Dan Boyle type guy on the open market (a true #1 defenseman and impact player), we now have actual assets that we could trade to get one.

by blaurg on May 12, 2010 1:10 PM PDT reply actions  

Still can’t believe how the Sharks were able to snatch up Thornton and Boyle without giving up much. I guess at least they gifted Ehrhoff to us.

by SJKel on May 12, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Taking advantage of other teams’ cap problems.

by blaurg on May 12, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

They didn’t get Thornton due to cap problems. That was pre-cap. They got him because of bad Boston management and Thornton supposedly not gelling there. Anyway, both teams have had President’s cups since, I believe, and neither has had a Stanley Cup.

by Beantown Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was mainly referring to Boyle, I think. Tampa had to move him to make room for Vinny’s contract IIRC.

And Jumbo Joe was traded in the first year of the cap era (2005-06) but not because of cap problems.

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 12, 2010 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I guess in general it could be restated as “Taking advantage of other teams’ problems” as in Boyle (cap), Heatley (demanding a trade) and Thornton (well they wanted to trade him but no one else knew)

by blaurg on May 13, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

What do we expect of backup goalies?

I would say we expect them to stop the shots they see, keep us in the game by not allowing more than 3 or 4, make 1 or 2 great saves a game. But wait…isn’t that what we got from Louie this series? OK, not a hater and our defense was obviously a problem, but my point is if Gillis can turn Luongo into a good return I wouldn’t be all that surprised if he was moved. At the least, I think we need a skater as captain and we have a great candidate in Kesler. If we can delicately take away the captain status and keep Louie, I’m all for it but I think we would have been better served to see a little Raycroft in this year’s playoffs when Louie was down as the team did seem to play better behind him.

by CdP on May 12, 2010 1:37 PM PDT reply actions  

That's stupid

First of all, Luongo is vastly superior to Raycroft and he is the number 1 so in the playoffs you play him. That’s it. Backups don’t play in the playoffs unless there is an injury. The Hawks were the better team and that is why we lost the series. Bottom line.

As for moving Luongo that is stupid too. He has a 12 year extension about to kick in. No one is going to be willing to take that contract on at this point. And even if they were and we could get a good return for him, which would also never happen since you never get value back for trading a superstar (just ask Mike Keenan), he has a No Movement Clause. Luongo is our goalie for at least another 5 years. Get used to it. Stop thinking about what might be if we moved him. Cause there is ZERO chance he gets moved.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Come on Sec. Calm down a little. I’m as ornery as you today, but you don’t have to shred people.

Shove it in your addendum.

by kesrows on May 12, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

DId I say anything

that wasn’t true though?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well possibly. Luongo could just say fuck it in three years and waive the NTC. I think there are teams out there who would take him.

by Sean Zandberg on May 12, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Three years maybe

but I thought we were talking about this upcoming off season. In which there is zero chance of Luongo being moved.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

And shredding is okay, because we just discussed the possibility of trading Luongo a little bit earlier. Why someone else decides to bring it up again is somewhat pointless.

by Vancouverguy on May 12, 2010 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Errhoff

I have to say, Gillis picking up Errhoff this season was a great move. I am aware that Lukowich, Schneider, Alberts didn’t work out so well…

But Errhoff was solid all year including the playoffs and look at his salary compared to the other D-men:
http://www.nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=VAN&season=0910

by SteveNux on May 12, 2010 1:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Wish Luko wouldn’t have been a cap issue. Liked him and thought he was useful.

Alberts managed to turn it around and play good, simple hockey. He has that big body any blueline could use and I am willing to give him a clean slate for next season. A year of working with him and a chance to get him used to the West, could do wonders.

Shove it in your addendum.

by kesrows on May 12, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Scheider can take his perfectly manicured eyebrows and go piss up a rope.

Shove it in your addendum.

by kesrows on May 12, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Giving up on Alberts now is ridiculous. With a training camp and some time, I think he’s a great option as a 6th d-man for a little over 1m cap hit.

Right now, the d-core is as follows:
Salo-Edler
Ehrhoff-Bieksa
Alberts-?

In an ideal world, Alberts is the 7th d-man, and we add 2 if we keep Bieksa or 3 if we don’t. I’d resign O’Brien if Bieksa’s contract can be moved (basically, replaced with someone else for similar cap hit which I think is possible).

For s&g:
Salo-Hamhuis
Ehrhoff-Seidenberg
O’Brien/Alberts-Edler

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Edler is too good to be playing on the third pair

This is the issue I have with the way our team is set up right now. I would rather have young guys like Oberg filling the 5th and 6th D man spots. Have a top 4 of:

Hamhuis – Ehrhoff
Edler- Salo

For example. Those two pairs are on the ice for 42-45 minutes a night. The other 15 minutes shouldn’t be taken up by guys making 3.5 million a year. They should be played by guys making league minimum to 1.5 million a year tops.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t necessarily disagree that that is the way things SHOULD be set up (IE – your top 4 play 42-45) but I’m not sure a) we have the pieces to do that, and b) those pieces are available. If they were, I’d be all for acquiring that.

Basically, if Ehrhoff, Edler and Salo are in your top 4, I think you need a better 4th option in that top 4 than Hamhuis.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Edler and Ehrhoff

can be part of a top 4 that logs big minutes. Edler is only going to get better and better. Salo is a guy I would love to see go despite how good I think he is. Just too injury prone.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps true

And to be fair, the really ballsy thing for MG to do would be to go after an RFA, and figure out a way to clear the salary of Bieksa AND Salo.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Erik Johnson FTW

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just said that below, actually...haha

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

As you said below apparently

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yup

That’s my new ideal plan.

Find a way to get ANYONE to take Bieksa’s contract off your hands (which I believe could be done if the asking price was something like a late round pick) and go after either Erik Johnson or Marc Staal.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Johnson is listed

at 6’5 227……that would be nice.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Very much so

It felt sooo good.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

The solution and plan should be to use one of those top 3 plus something else to acquire a true number 1 or 2. No clue who that would be, because those d-men don’t grow on trees.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

You got that right

3rd pair d-men pay rates should be around a million.

As a Flames fan we are staring at 3rd pair of Steve Staios at $2.7 and Cory Sarich at $3.6 !!

by PrairieStew on May 12, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sarich makes $3.6M?! My lord…

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 12, 2010 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I really think Salo’s got to go. He’s got so much good but he’s got so much frail. There’s bound to be someone out there we can get. Problem is, is there anyone with the leadership and experience of salo and still good. I mean that’s available.

"I carry gas...smoke...and also wear a helmet." Major Douche, USMC
"you'll be playing in england the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Aint no party like my nana's tea party...hey...hoe..."

by GAHHHHH! on May 12, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

One more year on his contract, IIRC. Maybe just cut his minutes down, so we don’t lose that leadership and experience.

Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.

by Smoboy41 on May 12, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

Salo played a great shutdown role for us this year, and the coaches trust him in a lot of important scenarios. Keep him another year, give him another shot at a cup run and let him retire.

by Nanodummy on May 12, 2010 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m surprised at how much my opinion of Alberts changes over the playoffs. Sure he’s slow and makes some horrible mistakes at times, but he definitely seemed to improve and when he become invisible out there I was very happy with him. I think giving him some time is the right decision.

by MonkD on May 13, 2010 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

i’ll be honest here, i still have no idea what to do with this team. therefore, i am avoiding all these debates. i’ll still be here, of course, but i’ll just sit back and watch.

by missy on May 12, 2010 2:25 PM PDT reply actions  

To me, we’re so close. So close.

"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"

- Dallas Stars Forum

by eightyseven on May 12, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah the problem

is that final step is the hardest one to make. From close to being there. Hardest step to make. And to make it our team’s make up needs to be alerted slightly. IMHO anyway.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like the Sharks. Looking good on paper and in the season, but failing in execution during the playoffs. Only we didn’t get booted out of the first round repeatedly. We got booted out of the second round repeatedly.

by SteveNux on May 12, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

bingo

And time is short. Either gillis makes the moves or risks the precious few seasons this core can produce and keep ahead of other teams in the nw and the west. Tick tock

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

that’s the thing—i don’t see our window as being particularly small. i figure 3-4 seasons at least.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

A lot can happen in those years. Luongo’s groin’s goes out, Kesler has some awful surgery, another twin goes down, etc. And even still 3-4 seasons is small if the chances are that this team takes a nose dive after that.

Again, I don’t want the Crawford years to have a sequel. IMO.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 13, 2010 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Frankly had it not been the Hawks…and I’d have taken ANYONE over them…I think we’d have seen a very different outcome. I don’t think the Hawks are a better team than Vancouver, but I think pitted head to head they are. I was quite surprised to see most everyone want to face them in round two given the potential options we had. I was one of the few votes in those other categories. I wish I’d been wrong. =(

by MonkD on May 13, 2010 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Marc Staal

Whomever said they’d go all out acquire him…well, he’s only an offer sheet (and the draft picks) away…

Same goes for a Hjalmmarsson, or a Niskanen, or a Carle, or a Coburn or a Wisniewski.

Or just go all in and go after Erik Johnson.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:33 PM PDT reply actions  

I’m fully on board with pulling out all the stops to acquire Marc Staal, including but not limited to Edler+Hodgson+Schroeder. I’m very convinced he’s already one of the league’s 15-20 best, and he won’t turn 24 until January.

The rest of the guys you listed above would be nice to have, but nowhere near “solution”-level types for next year.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd rather go with

a Coburn type to be honest. And I don’t think I would package Schroeder and Hodgson. That’s too many prospects. It would hand cuff us a little from making more moves. I am not adverse to moving both guys but in seperate packages that improve the team. Plus if we agree we need a third line center why not see if Hodgson can be that guy before we move him?

And why deal a potential stud up and coming D man just to get another one? That’s counter productive in my opinion. I would love to add an Erik Johnson, Marc Staal type but not if we have to give up Edler. I would like to add a guy like that to a D corp that has Edler.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

exactly.

Edler can’t move. Bieksa can (and probably will). O’Brien is more than likely gone.

That is why I advocate dealing from the position of strength (being offense) if we want to a “new-NHL” style Defensemen (or two) to replace Mitchell, O’Brien (and possibly Bieksa).

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Coburn is only on 1.3 this year

so with the Flyers cap issues they might not be able to match a market value offer. I have always been a big fan and I think he still has potential to get even better. I think our D needs to be revamped a little. Names like Staal, Coburn, Hamhuis and more are all names I like. And they can be had with some wheeling and dealing. Grabner, Schroeder, Schnieder and Bieksa, Salo would all be names I would be looking to package into 2 deals to bring in D reinforcements. And Willie can resign for league minimum if he wants to stay and try to continue his career. Play him on the third pair and have him mentor a Connaughton or Oberg.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe Willie can teach Oberg how to grow facial hair.

Speaking of facial hair, did anyone get this correlation between Pat(rick) Kane and Cliff (Wolfman) Claven?

compare:

and

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

And why deal a potential stud up and coming D man just to get another one?

I guess I don’t really view Marc Staal as “up-and-coming” so much as I see him as already among the game’s best. If Edler ever reaches the point that Staal’s at right now (taking on the opposition’s top lines every single night and playing them near even), I’ll jump for joy—and Edler’s nine months older.

by Passive Voice on May 12, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Edler averaged over 22 minutes per game this year: just who do you think he was facing in all that ice time? Fourth liners?

by Thursday on May 12, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Classic case of

undervaluing a guy based on the past couple games. IMO

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

I suppose we’ll have to disagree about the relative values of Marc Staal and Alex Edler (whom, by the way, I like quite a bit as a hockey player in his own right)

by Passive Voice on May 13, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think your over valuing

where Staal is at this point in his career.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

No way

I’d trade Edler straight up for Staal, Edler is the better player today and will be even moreso in the future imo.

Everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I got the pistols so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah that seems fair

by yoata on May 13, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I mean, I’d really like to ask the same question to you. Edler wasn’t our top defensive option at all this year; Marc Staal far and away was the Rangers’.

by Passive Voice on May 13, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

no way St. Louis lets Erik Johnson get away

whatever MG offers they will certainly match, he is probably one of the top 2 or 3 young d-men in the league (i like doughty’s offensive game a bit better, i would probably put tyler myers at #3).

we have to be realistic a blue chip guy like that isnt going anywhere.

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 2:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Probably true

But what’s the worst that happens? They match.

If he’s not signed by the beginning of the RFA signing period, MG should be all over that.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on May 12, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe

Vancouver could ease the pain of the signing by giving the Blues exclusive rights to negotiate with Pavol Demitra (former Blue), Ryan Johnson (former Blue), Mason Raymond and a pick?

ok the first two were a joke, but the last two might be cool.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why would we give up Raymond

at this point? We want to get slower and less potent on offense?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

because we have Grabner …. a player who is not an RFA, who has the same straight ahead speed and arguably a better release. Plus, he at least appeared to want to go to the dirty areas to score goals. Mason was in large part a perimeter player during the Chicago series.

Gotta give some to get some.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well if all of that is true

and you noticed it why would the Blues want him?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well then give them Bieksa!!!

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

in exchange for Pietrangelo/EJ and Backes …

SOLD!

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

i doubt they’d accept that price….

by missy on May 12, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

what about ....

if we included Bernier? a big body presence/power forward in the making?

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

2 minute minor

for a McGuireism….sorry you can’t comment on anything for two minutes.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about

Zach Bogosian? He must be close to being on that list.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

that whole 2008 d-man draft class is sick

doughty, bogosian, pietrangelo, schenn, myers, karlsson, del zotto, carlson.

i think that year might go down in league history

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I agree

it’s even sicker if you take off Schenn!!!!!

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Colten Teubert, also 2008, looks to be a very good prospect too… and he’s an LA King. They are without a doubt a team of the future. And they have Thomas Hickey, another very strong looking defensive prospect. On top of the barely 20 year olds Drew Doughty and Joe Johnson. Man oh man.

by Beantown Canuck on May 12, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

kings blues and preds all have sick defensive depth

gonna be tough to score in the west the next 10 years or so.

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

"I was thinking it would be cool to see a game on the road. I have been looking all over this atlas but I don't see Vancouver anywhere. What state is this sh*t in!?"

- Dallas Stars Forum

by eightyseven on May 12, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never watch leafs games...

has his game fallen off this year?

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:07 PM PDT reply actions  

Hugely

he was benched a bunch of times this year. I don’t know how good he will turn out to be but at this point he is no where near as good as some of those other guys. Don’t forget Colton Teubert either.

hey since the Blues have a stud and another one coming, Pietrangelo, maybe they will trade us one of them for a goalie prospect, a D man off our roster and a pick? Or a sign and trade for Johnson? Wishful thinking?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

not likely
hey since the Blues have a stud and another one coming, Pietrangelo, maybe they will trade us one of them for a goalie prospect, a D man off our roster and a pick? Or a sign and trade for Johnson? Wishful thinking?

though, I think the Blues would be more apt if Mason Raymond was included in a potential deal.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I will direct you to my question above

and add a caveat…why are you so eager to get rid of Raymond?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

i agree keep raymond that kid can fly

he just needs to build some strength in the offseason but he is a huge piece of the nucks future

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Canucks have invested in him a lot over the last little while so I suspect that they’d keep him. He’s been fairly consistent. Having said that, we do have a lot of young fast guys entering the lineup so if they could get a really strong and semi young defenseman out of the deal, they should pull the trigger.

by SteveNux on May 13, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

slow on my initial response, sorry Sec312.

I think that Grabner offers the same as Raymond, at less of a cost. Raymond is an RFA. If the Canucks need to address their "D"ficiencies, and get a more gritty, bigger bodied fourth line, they are going to have to deal from their perceived position of strength – offense.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I agree I guess

I would rather take a guy we know can score 25 plus goals over the unknown quantity that is Grabner. Hopefully MG can pull off a deal with Raymond where he makes less than market value. I mean it would be tough for him to ask for 3 million a year when Burrows is making 2.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pissed me off when HNIC were arguing for his raise

hard to MG to pay him less then 3 mill per after that

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

that was the NHLPA shill Healy speaking, wasn't it?

of course he is going to lobby for big bucks! I think he was one of the first who laid the smackdown on Kesler for daring to suggest that a player should take a discount to build a better team

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Raymond is going to get his dough

based on the fact he generated 25 goals not playing with the Sedins, being shuffled around the lineup and also playing the PK. For that reason, I think he is gone this offseason.

Don’t get me wrong, I think he has a lot of upside and can be coached accordingly – I just think if the Canucks want to improve their current depth issues on defense and in the bottom 6, they need to look at all options – including dealing Mason Raymond.

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Makes that Burrows contract look even more genius for MG. He can use that standard as a sort of ‘bargaining chip’.

“If you don’t score 30+ goals, PK, and hustle every shift like Burrows you’re not making $2M+.”

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 13, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah seems like they were rushing him quite a bit

doesnt surprise me that his development has slowed, when will the leafs learn

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hopefully never

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

makes me glad they kept hodgson in the minors this year

he backslid a bit also i think (mostly injury related) but at least they didn’t pile a bunch of pressure on him

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I guess

I feel like his development was stunted this year. But maybe it would have been worse than stunted if he had been in the bigs.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly...

Its almost like they minimized the damage sending him back to brampton, making him a healthy scratch half the season while his back healed then watching him struggle in the bottom 6 would not have helped his growth.

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe our younger guys would be better helped with a change in our coaching ranks?

why not offer Arniel a gig with the big club? He seems to get the most out of the scraps that are sent to Manitoba?

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

so fire the entire coaching or just the assiants

Follow me on twitter at Lancers25 i give insight on every sport. but hockey mostly. Mike green in regular season- Norris Canadiate. Mike Green in Playoffs- Nowhere to be found

by Lancers25 on May 12, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

A large part of me

thinks it’s time for AV to go.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 12, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

possibly.

I think a new start is required. if Arniel is so highly thought of in the league (based on the interviews he is getting), why not here? or maybe push out Bowness and / or Walter (whoever is in charge of the PK) for him

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

well he has good talent and has squandered it

Follow me on twitter at Lancers25 i give insight on every sport. but hockey mostly. Mike green in regular season- Norris Canadiate. Mike Green in Playoffs- Nowhere to be found

by Lancers25 on May 12, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

never!

Schenn is the human eraser! he’s a Monster! RAHRRRR!

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

ahh!!!!!!!

Follow me on twitter at Lancers25 i give insight on every sport. but hockey mostly. Mike green in regular season- Norris Canadiate. Mike Green in Playoffs- Nowhere to be found

by Lancers25 on May 12, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Give him his GM job already

he will make Milbury look like Scotty Bowman

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

for who tampa?

Follow me on twitter at Lancers25 i give insight on every sport. but hockey mostly. Mike green in regular season- Norris Canadiate. Mike Green in Playoffs- Nowhere to be found

by Lancers25 on May 12, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anybody

just get him off the TV

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

couldn't get any worse.

maybe they could try to recycle Barry Melrose as coach. and get John Buccigross as the team president and Milbury as the special advisor. that way they could boast that Tampa arguably has an international TV presence

by ChuckinNux on May 12, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sigh Melrose...

trade stamkos for pat kane, lecavalier for ryan smyth and sign jagr from russia, he will have his “Mullet Line”.

by jdk13 on May 12, 2010 3:41 PM PDT reply actions  

Personally I could wait a few years for the present D to be revamped(…gutted).

by Sneps-ish on May 12, 2010 4:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Oh, and Gillis needs to grow some balls and go get a Hamhuis or Volchenkov, some how,
some way.

by Sneps-ish on May 12, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

…and Forsberg

/runs away laughing

Shove it in your addendum.

by kesrows on May 12, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey Yankee...

this was an incredibly well written and good post man. Props.

"I carry gas...smoke...and also wear a helmet." Major Douche, USMC
"you'll be playing in england the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Aint no party like my nana's tea party...hey...hoe..."

by GAHHHHH! on May 12, 2010 5:38 PM PDT reply actions  

cheers sir

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 13, 2010 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Gillis has won the NW twice, made it to the final 8 twice, has a competitive farm team, spare parts for depth and trading and it took injuries to 3 of our top d men to have us lose in 6 to one of the best teams in the nhl.

And we’re questioning this performance?

We need to replace Mitchell, and perhaps upgrade upon him by downgrading our Bieksa slot and using his cap to afford a good top two guy.

Maybe a little more physical prescence would be nice, but not essential.

This is a good team. Our peers were Chicago, San Jose and Detroit.

We also have a 3-5 year window with this group.

Frankly, I’m proud of this season and proud we held on so long against a team with a ridiculous d core, a crazy good top 6 and that black wizard scotty bowman working against us.

This was not our year. Especially when we lost Mitchell.

Sad, but satisfying. And hate me for saying this, but I hope chicago wins the cup now.

Go canucks go.

by Nanodummy on May 12, 2010 7:19 PM PDT reply actions  

And we’re questioning this performance?

Honestly, yes. I listed out the number of things he’s done well and I also said the future is far from bleak. There are a good number of reasons to enjoy the season they just had. However, in his own words, we haven’t gotten to the point he described two years ago. If the goal is the Cup and we can’t get even half way there, then something is wrong. And he’s in charge.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 13, 2010 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Great analysis YC

I’m chiming in late but here goes:

I don’t think MG has done a bad job, when MG came in couple of years ago, i would say his problems were:

Forwards (Naslund/Morrison were the core):
(1) Lack of footspeed (beyond Kesler and Burrows)
(2) Lack of size and grit
(3) Lack of 2nd 3rd and 4th line

Defense (top four were Ohlund/Mitchell/Salo/Bieksa)
(4) Lack of footspeed/puck carrying skills
(5) Lack of size and grit
(6) Lack of depth (beyond the top four)

(7) Empty farm

By last year’s off season, he had hoped they would be dealt with through:

Forwards:
(1) Lack of footspeed
Kes, Burrows, Raymond, Hansen, Rypien, Grabner

(2) Lack of size and grit.
Still a problem. Bernier doesn’t count.

(3) Lack of 2nd 3rd and 4th line
I’d call Kes, Burrows, Raymond now 2nd line materials, Wellwood, Grabner and Samuelson 3rd, and Rypien fourth. So, need a third liner and 2 fourth liners.

Defense (top four were Ohlund/Mitchell/Salo/Bieksa)
(4) Lack of footspeed/puck carrying skills
Added Erhoff. Edler is still prone to speedsters on the outside.

(5) Lack of size and grit
Alberts. But he can’t skate.

(6) Lack of depth (beyond the top four)
SOB is actually turning out ok. This is where I would give MG props, but things didn’t turn out. He signed Rome and Schneider, got Erhoff and Lukowich. Remember us laughing last summer? Who’s gonna be the 9th or 10th defensemen. I really believed if Schneider didn’t bitch and MG/AV had some foresight to postpone Luko’s surgery, then we would have had Schneider and Lukowich filling in for Mitchell and , and Rome would be the 6th. This is actually similar in approach to Montreal last summer, sign a whole bunch of D like Gill and see where that led. of course, we didn’t have a stud like PK Subban waiting in the wings, which is where we miss Bourdon.

(7) Empty farm
Picking from so far back (except CoHo), we have decent assets, with Schroeder, Schneider, CoHo, Shirokov (growth done yet?), Oberg, Connaughton, and some of those college kids we added late in the year.
-—————————————————————————————————
Conclusion:
Overall, I would say for MG, I would give him 5/7 which is around 70% approval, which isn’t bad. The 2 fails are (4) defensemen with speed and puck-carrying skills, and (2) size/grit in front and back.

I don’t know how, but MG has to find at least 2 more puck-movers like Erhoff, cos if we don’t, LA (Doughty, Johnson) and St Louis (Johnson) will pass us with their young D, with Det/Chi/SJ and even Nashville (Weber/Suter) ahead of us already.

We need more grit in our new acquisitions (3 new fwds and 3 new D?) cos things won’t be called in the playoffs. Our D wasn’t bad in this last series, but because we get hit so often, look how the Hawks eventually pounded Edler and SOB in submission.

Finally, given what I think we need and what we have, it would appear (to me at least), we have redundancy in Raymond/Hanson/Hodgson/Schroeder/Shirokov – all small tiny skilled forwards, in addition to the non-physical forwards we already have. I would love for all of them to stay, but it wouldn’t surprise me to see one of them go for MG to get something we need.

That’s my two cents. 70 out of a 100 for MG. I don’t think we need drastic moves (see Calgary) since we are 3 fwds + 2 dman away from being in elite status in my view.

by nucklinBadger on May 12, 2010 7:49 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

well written and fair assessment!
well done sir

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by CC11 on May 12, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice work, you clearly put some time/effort into this.

However, a bunch of the problems that you’re saying MG fixed were draft picks or finds of the previous management (Kesler, Raymond, Grabner, Hansen, Edler, Burrows, Rypien). So he can’t really get credit for them outside of maybe helping their development and getting the key ones re-signed. He gets full credit for Ehrhoff, Samuelsson and Wellwood as well as bulking up the farm though.

Finally, given what I think we need and what we have, it would appear (to me at least), we have redundancy in Raymond/Hanson/Hodgson/Schroeder/Shirokov – all small tiny skilled forwards, in addition to the non-physical forwards we already have.

This is dead on. I’d like to see more gritty, skilled guys but they unfortunately don’t grow on trees and every team is looking for them as well.

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 13, 2010 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Trying to find gritty skilled guys

leads to having Pyatt or Bernier on your team. Sure that’s the route you want to go?

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Section i would have agreed with you on this puck possession experiment we were running this year, until I saw Edler getting crunched in game 6.

Then I thought back to the Kings series and it was Edler possessed to set the physical tone in Game 1. In the 07 Ducks series and it was Pronger, Getlaf, Moen, Phalson and co running us ragged. Back in 03 when we took out the Blues, I did remember Bertuzzi taking out BOTH McInnis and Jackman in Game 7 a la Bugfulyn. And in 94 we had Momesso, Antonski, Hunter, Odjick, to counter Niewendyk/Fleury/Suter, Modano and co, GIlmour/Clark, before we were outhit AND outfinessed by the Rangers.

So yes, that’s the route we NEED to go. We are so “finess” that our team is fitter than an aerobics instructor, but wilts under the slightest hint of grit. I agree Pyatt and Bernier didn’t pan out, but those were educated misses – they were former high-round (1st round?) draft picks. That’s what I meant in hoping MG got a couple more Erhoff tricks up his sleeves.

by nucklinBadger on May 13, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well that's strange cause other than a couple 4th liners

and Byfuglien the Hawks aren’t that big of a team. And they play a puck possession style. Yet they are the team that just knocked us out of the playoffs. If we had been bigger we would have been slower and they would have shit kicked us even harder.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

We don't need to get bigger

in the top 6 we just need to get big guys on the 3rd and 4th lines who can play. We have big guys now who are a waste of space. We could use a SOB type D man but with puck skills. That would help too. But getting bigger isn’t the answer in today’s NHL.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well that’s strange cause other than a couple 4th liners and Byfuglien the Hawks aren’t that big of a team

I dunno about that. Buff, Eager, Brouwer, Ladd, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Kopecky and Bickell are all guys as big or bigger than Ryan Kesler. They’re legitimately and substantially bigger than us up front, and it’s not like we field a bunch of Ryan Callahan types.

I agree with your overall point, that bigger =/= tougher, but our forward corps is really short on grit.
I agree that more Pyatts and Berniers won’t help much, but the fact that Alex Burrows has to be our main

by Passive Voice on May 13, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

should read “bigger=/=better”

by Passive Voice on May 13, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ladd, Toews, Hossa, Sharp

all around 6’2 210 lbs…that’s not big by NHL standards. That’s average. Kesler is 6’2 210…Not that much difference.

Eager, Brouwer Bickell are 4th liners for the most part. I am OK with more size on those lines. But not at the expense of speed.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"He's got a man deep..wait, no that IS Mandeep!!" - Don Taylor

by Section 312 on May 13, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I should’ve said “PROVEN gritty skilled guys” like a Samuelsson.

Not reclamation projects like Pyatt or Bernier.

Poutine & Meatballs

by cyxj on May 13, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, I went with your correct assumption that MG can only get credit for not dealing away players from prior regimes, which given what Sutter did in Alberta, cannot be taken for granted.

by nucklinBadger on May 13, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nicely said

3 new fwds and 3 new D would make me a very happy person come September.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on May 13, 2010 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

mason raymond reminds me of the peter schaefer situation back when…

we traded from our strengh (F) for some d depth and we got sami salo

trade worked out for both teams

maybe a raymond + bieksa for bogosian trade… we need that nasty presence in our backend that can skate, nice try alberts but you are not the answer….

i want hamhuis and/or volcenkov on our team next year, but would trading raymond for the rights to either player be too risky?

by GT-R on May 12, 2010 8:05 PM PDT reply actions  

what would it take to get marc staal?

think the rangers will bite if we offered

raymond bieksa 1st round pick for staal and their 2nd this year?

by GT-R on