My opinion is that it’s mighty arrogant of us to think that we can destroy a body of mass that’s been around for 23,000 times as long as we have. HAving said that, I 100% agree that we as a species are very much able to and have affected change in the environment of said body of mass. Whether we’re negatively affecting it or not, climate change is indeed happening, and has happened countless times before on this rock. Are we influencing the pace with which it happens? Very possibly. Or maybe not. Maybe it’s the farts of cattle that are affecting it most (look it up, it is very much a possible scenario). I don’t think science has the capability to determine that at this point, as no one was around in any of the other climate change periods, and fossil/strata examination tends to paint the picture in very broad strokes.

Having said all that, regardless of the affect internal combustion engines have on the climate, there are two other factors to consider with them. First off, we have the technology to not require them period, and big oil makes sure that technology is buried before it sees the light of day. Secondly, greenhouse affect aside, the fact is we are not only depleting our supplies of fossil fuels possibly unnecessarily, but that depletion of resources is quickly approaching religion as the biggest reason we human’s have to beat the shit out of each other. So, yeah, I’m all for more fuel efficiency and alternative fuel supplies.

The thing is Dan that a lot of the science on the other side of the ledger, the holy shit we’re in trouble here people side, has been financed by Big Government with a clear agenda themselves. That’s why I don’t think anyone should be entirely for or against the idea until they read all of the literature on both sides and understands why that literature exists. I am still in the middle because I simply can’t wade through all of the science and the stuff I have gotten through isn’t convincing one way or the other.

I will say though that clean renewable resources are the way to go. Say what you want about Global Warming but at the very least fossil fuels are a finite resource where wind power, solar energy and thermodynamic power sources aren’t finite. And let’s face it smog is a problem so at the very least we should be worried about the quality of the air we breath. Recycling is important because land fills are horrible for the surrounding ecology. I mean there are clear reasons to recycle and use less energy, walk to work sometimes and all of that stuff even if you don’t believe in Global Warming.

knows!

See…I see it too.

I don’t get the hubris on the other side.

Like when some dweeb hacks a computer in East Anglia, and puts out a few emails, OUT OF CONTEXT…taking a snippet of convo and making it a big deal….

The next day, there are all the foolish talking heads on Fox and the Conservative talk shows all mocking Al Gore and declaring “its over”.

The next day!!! Just a coink-e-dink, right casual? Never mind all the crap from both sides, people like me and you…who know nothing about the science. I just do not get the amount of self involved pride to just say that 95% of the people that have made it their life’s work to study such things are wrong, because you say so…or some hack in the pay of the polluters says something different.

For me, its because I have lived in a province like BC and enjoyed nature for all of my life. In various corners of the “greatest place on Earth”, I have seen the climate change. This province is in a zone that is changing, but the affects are here. They just haven’t blown down your house yet. ( starting on the urban parks first!!! Poor Stanley Park…)

In Vancouver…way bigger temp changes, and weird weather at differing times of the year.

Or, a place like Revelstoke, normally always gets snow, when I was younger. 3000’ feet and higher around there. Highest passes in BC.

Some years that they call normal now, the amount of snow is laughable. They thank God for El Nino and the increased snow it brings at every ski-hill in the province now!

Look, I aint saying that there are normal patterns of weather, and cycles that have gone on for thousands of years.

But any denier that tries to say that man has not negatively affected the planet since the Industrial Revolution is just kidding themselves.

Look no further than the signs around you. The superstorms that NEVER happened in the past, or once in a hundred years…that happen with alarming regularity.

Or just walk out your door.

And FFS…cows? A mark of humanity, the farming of them, no? The increase in methane emissions in our atmosphere since the industrialization of food that caused it is an argument for a whole ‘nother thread! You are right there tho’ Section. One of the biggest reasons for the problem right there…the billions of farting cows we raise. Its proof too. You can’t tell me that there were just as many wild animals doing the same …“back in the day…” So, yes…very salient point.

So, no offense casual, Section, and the other cynics. I just find the amount of smugness to the actual evidence in our own backyard, let alone just seeing the increase in weather related catastrophes startling in it’s ignorance.

But hey, if it helps you sleep at night.

Just don’t be so smug as to try and convince folks like myself and yoata, that add one and one together and get two…that the evidence is wrong…or that some scientist in the pay of Big Oil said anything.

There are just too many scientific types that are far smarter than you or me, who all agree with what we call the truth…95%!!!!!

Now…who’s better on the second line, Grabs or Sammy?

another Denial Machine smokescreen Section.

There’s truth to it of course, but it is irrelevant w/regard to the problem of AGW.

casual you have to keep Man made Global Warming or man made climate change seperate from regular old run of the mill climate change.

Climate change is a change in the statistical distribution of weather over periods of time that range from decades to millions of years. It can be a change in the average weather or a change in the distribution of weather events around an average (for example, greater or fewer extreme weather events). Climate change may be limited to a specific region, or may occur across the whole Earth.

In recent usage, especially in the context of environmental policy, climate change usually refers to changes in modern climate. It may be qualified as anthropogenic climate change, more generally known as “global warming” or “anthropogenic global warming” (AGW).

Otherwise we are to believe that every major scientific organization on the planet, even those hired by the petroleum industry are all in on some collosal Conspiracy???

Centralizing power. LOL, you mean like the Oligopoly that controls the planet’s energy resources and doesn’t want anybody getting off the grid/pipe?