Vancouver's Blueline Offense
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 18, 2010 5:02 PM PST
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During this current road trip I've been tracking Alexander Edler's on-ice results closely since, in general, I've been duly impressed with his start to the year. As of this writing he's 8th in the league for points from a blueliner and leads TOI/60 at ES and on the PP.
In the process I found myself wondering how the rest of the blueline was performing offensively in respect to last year's group. Granted it's a fractured start with injuries to Dan Hamhuis and Keith Ballard in addition to Sami Salo being MIA. Nevertheless, after the jump, a quick look at how the offensive numbers from our defense stack up against the rest of the league.
| Goals | Points |
|
|---|---|---|
| Anaheim | 8 | 37 |
| Atlanta | 9 | 42 |
| Boston | 5 | 25 |
| Buffalo | 14 | 40 |
| Calgary | 6 | 29 |
| Carolina | 10 | 37 |
| Chicago | 5 | 35 |
| Colorado | 6 | 32 |
| Columbus | 2 | 23 |
| Dallas | 3 | 22 |
| Detroit | 9 | 46 |
| Edmonton | 5 | 35 |
| Florida | 7 | 36 |
| Los Angeles | 3 | 35 |
| Minnesota | 8 | 28 |
| Montreal | 6 | 35 |
| Nashville | 10 | 31 |
| Phoenix | 9 | 37 |
| Pittsburgh | 10 | 49 |
| NJ | 6 | 20 |
| NYI | 5 | 24 |
| NYR | 7 | 32 |
| Ottawa | 10 | 35 |
| Philadelphia | 4 | 34 |
| San Jose | 5 | 26 |
| St. Louis | 4 | 24 |
| Tampa Bay |
4 | 28 |
| Toronto | 3 | 29 |
| Vancouver | 7 | 34 |
| Washington | 12 | 42 |
Click the header to sort each column
The Canucks are average in this respect and there's nothing wrong with being in the middle of the pack as we approach the quarter pole of the season. The heavy lifting falls to Edler and Ehrhoff: both are #1 & #2 at ES and PP TOI and both lead the defense in offensive zone starts. Last year was the same story. In fact, if both players maintain their current point pace, Edler will end with a career-high 59 points and Ehrhoff with 46, two better than last season.
However injuries, jumbled pairings, bad luck or flat-out poor starts have robbed support outside of these two. Last season Kevin Bieksa and Sami Salo were ranked just behind Edler and Ehrhoff; Bieksa had a .40 ppg and Salo had a .41 ppg. This season Bieksa struggled to get on the stat sheet through much of October and is only at a .17 ppg. Hamhuis currently has a .30 ppg (and a .31 last year) but he won't bring near the 35-40 pt range that Salo or Bieksa can provide. Same story with Ballard and he's pointless this season after having 28 points (a .34 ppg) last year. Andrew Alberts, Aaron Rome and Ryan Parent can't be counted on for consistent production and Salo isn't due back soon.
The brunt of this may fall to Bieksa but he's picking up the tougher minutes usually occupied by Salo (and to a lesser extent Willie Mitchell). Unlike Edler and Ehrhoff, he's used liberally in all three zones and, along with Hamhuis, faces the toughest minutes on a nightly basis. Say what you will about his on-ice decisions, but we shouldn't bemoan his lack of production if he's cast in a shutdown role. In fact, Edler playing above his average at the moment softens the blow from Bieksa's slow start.
As long as top guys like Raymond and Samuelsson sputter to find their game however, it will only behoove the team if the Malhotra line and the defense continue to chip in. It's holding steady for now, but some additional blueline offense could make the difference in tighter games and make any Andrei Markov-type potential injury down the line easier to stomach.
There's always the Manitoba route too where Kevin Connauton (3-4-7) and Lee Sweatt (3-3-6) could provide a punch.
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Great post.
I’m really hoping Edler can become the real deal, a well rounded D-man, but he’s still playing the soft minutes.
What I’m scared of is the fact that after Dan Hamhuis, Bieksa is getting shut down duty. We need Ballard to step up, Salo to heal up, or Gillis to trade up so we can really shut down when we need to.
SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!
Great idea for a post and thanks for doing it!
Nucks Misconduct
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"We live in a country where John Lennon takes eight bullets, Yoko Ono is walking right beside him and not one hits her. Explain that to me, God! Explain that to me!!" -Dennis Leary
Can you really
put so much stock in qualcomp just for starters?
I mean everyone loves to say how flawed +/- is but we are supposed to believe that the combined +/- of the opposition players on the ice at any one time is the best indication of the quality of the competition?
It is in fact possible, and even common for players who pose little offensive threat to have a good +/-
To me, in terms of defending, the quality of competition is best determined by something like the ppg of those players over say the last 40 games or something.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
As to the inner workings of qualcomp, I’d have to defer to the folks smarter than I who came up with it. It’s a generally accepted stat though, even if we’re using a small sample size of 18 games. In this glance, I think qualcomp coupled with zone starts gives you an idea of what the player is being used for: Edler and Bieksa are similar, but AV is clearly using them in different roles.
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by Yankee Canuck on Nov 18, 2010 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
In other words Bieksa sucks right? Regardless of what those pesky stats say.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 18, 2010 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
a lot
easier to just make things up for yourself that way is it?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
What else were you possibly getting at? Cause if it’s just that the qualcomp stat is not perfect then save yourself some time and know that everyone is aware of that. It’s not perfect, but it’s an interesting stat developed by some pretty smart people and a pretty solid indicator of who is playing the other teams top players. When you come up with a better system get back to me with the results and I’ll be the first one interested.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 18, 2010 10:53 PM PST up reply actions
to be sure, the corsi qualcomp numbers are probably a better indicator, although i suspect it’s still pretty early in the year.
by Passive Voice on Nov 18, 2010 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
Even using the Corsi QualComp numbers...
…Hamhuis and Bieksa are leading the defense in quality of competition. It’s been really obvious that they have been used in a shutdown role against the opponent’s top players.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
Bieksa
Is also second in SH TOI/G for defensemen
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Yes
that is a stat I can give him credit for, he is on the first unit PK and we do have quite a good PK%, so I think that indicates he is doing a pretty good job there. As I have said before, perhaps knowing he has to just concentrate on D helps him do so, wouldn’t surprise me because it’s always seemed to be his decision making that’s gotten him into trouble, when to go, when to stay, when to pinch, when to back off, when to go for the hit, when to fall back, they hockey sense just doesn’t seem to be strong with him that way, but perhaps on the PK taking away that decision simplifies things and allows him to just play.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
It's interesting
because in baseball there was, and still is to some extent, a big batter between the new school stats heads and the old school guys, like me, but over time the stats became more refined and now pretty much everyone agrees that these new stats are very useful. Look at Felix Hernandez winning the Cy for an example of the new school stats gaining a real foot hold. I think these new hockey stats are useful and will get more useful as they become refined.
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by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed
They’re no where near baseball’s sophistication level, but it’s a start and useful as a gauge, not gospel. It’s why I said below, in response to Skeeter, I should have used Cori Qualcomp instead of the normal qualcomp since people generally are moving in that direction, though in this example Bieksa still leads the team.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
In years to come
we may even laugh at ourselves for using these stats. But as things stand right now they are the best we have and I think in the right context still useful.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
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by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Never will
be with any sort of accuracy, not in a sport like hockey.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I should have used that stat instead
It paints a more accurate picture.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
I was getting at
exactly what I said, which is why you should try actually reading it.
I didn’t even mention Bieksa, you did, I simply question the validity of deeming the best competition (for a dman especially) by the stat of +/-.
I notice how instead of just considering that in and of itself you somehow need to equate everything I say to an attack on Bieksa.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
You didn’t need to mention Bieksa by name. The post mentions how Bieksa is playing against the tough competition, the most obvious way to get that is from the qualcomp stat and suddenly you have a problem with that stat.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 12:15 AM PST up reply actions
To be fair...
Bieksa’s corsi rel QualComp also seems to say he’s getting the tough minutes.
Which isn’t really an endorsement, as our blueline has been pretty spotty.
Yankee also looked at zone starts, which also paints Bieksa in a shutdownish light, and Edler and Erhoff’s QualTeam stats, both corsi and regular, seem to say they’ve been getting the soft minutes with the top line while Hamhuis, Bieksa, Alberts and Rome have been on the grind lines against the top lines.
I think we’re really missing Salo right now.
SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!
Again
this is all based on +/-, why will nobody address the serious problem with basing quality of opposition on +/-?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Why is +/- not a good base stat to judge the quality of competition? The best players tend to have the best +/- stats. Forwards and Defenseman
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
Read
the rest of this thread and hopefully you will see why.
It is not a good judge of difficulty to defend against is my point.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I saw what you said and to some degree I agree but it does give you at the very least a loose idea of the competition faced. What else could you use?
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
part of the theory is that, while any given individual’s +/- for a given season might be totally bonkers, across the entire league better players will make up a higher-than-average proportion of the pool of players with good +/- (and, naturally, the same goes for bad players and bad +/-).
but you’re right, +/- is a generally silly stat, which is why i suggest using the corsi qualcomp (bigger sample size=more reliable). incidentally, that number still paints Bieksa’s role this year as being among the most difficult on the team.
and FWIW, zonestart has nothing at all to do with +/-.
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
It may
or may not be a an indication of good or bad players but what it clearly is not is an accurate indication of difficulty to defend against. That is the problem with using it in that context.
And if those other stats use it in that context then it is still inherently flawed even in combination with others.
GIGO
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
want to make this very clear
none of those other stats (corsi qualcomp, ZS) use +/- at all, for anything.
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry
qualcomp or corsi qualcomp?
I understand corsi is shots.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
heh, sorry, didn’t do a good job of making anything clear.
Player X’s “Qualcomp” is an average of the Even-Strength [Plus-Minus per time on ice] of the individuals he plays against, weighted for the amount of time Player X plays against each individual.
Player X’s “Corsi Qualcomp” is an average of the Even-Strength [(shots for while on minus shots against while on) per time on ice] of the individuals he plays against, again weighted for the amount of time Player X plays against each individual.
The biggest benefit of using “Corsi Qualcomp” over regular (ie. plus-minus) “Qualcomp” lies in the fact that a player’s +/- can be greatly affected by his goalie; even Bobby Orr would have a shit +/- if I were his goalie. By factoring in all shots (not just the ones that get converted to goals), you can generally get a better impression of whether or not a player is any good, and by extension, whether he’s difficult to play against.
It’s worth noting that Corsi Qualcomp also doesn’t address your concern about determining whether a player is difficult specifically to defend against.
Lastly, Zonestart is purely (number of offensive zone faceoffs on the ice for)/(# of ozone faceoffs+# of dzone FOS). The math is such that if a player takes an equal number of offensive and defensive draws, his ZS% would be 50; if he takes twice as many ozone FOs as defensive FOS, his ZS% would be 33.3. It’s nice because, unlike the two forms of “Qualcomp”, it’s not even much of a calculation; it’s basically just a record of what happened.
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Corsi seems a bit weak as well though. I mean a shot from the slot and right in front of the goalie counts the same as a shot from a difficult angle or the point. So you may get more shots on me but what if the defender is playing really well and forcing the shots to come from areas where they have no chance of going in?
Ummm
No, Zone starts are based on what zones you’re in when you take face offs.
And Corsi rel Qualcomp is based on the relative corsi quality you are facing. Also Corsi Qualteam tells you whether your regular linemates are outshooting your opponents. Edler and Erhoff are killing their teammates in that category, and it’s likely they are playing with each other, with the sedins against the soft lines, so they are out shooting them, as I sadi above.
Corsi is +/- of shots for and against, which is a pretty good indicator of puck control. Bieksa is playing players who control the puck more than their opponents.
Corsi Qual/Comp is a way to address Qual/Comp’s short comings.
The other thing too Yoata, is that QualComp is based on an average rating of the lines the player facing’s +/- compared with the rest of their team. So a good player like Rick Nash on a shitty team will have a good rating even if his +/- sucks, because his teammates suck more.
SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!
I just don't see how that's clear
qualcomp uses +/-, so like I said, unless you think the best +/- players automatically represent the highest quality of competition, the stat is inherently flawed.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
It takes into account what BTN defines as the opponent’s rating:
“A player’s "Rating" is his +/- per 60 minutes when he’s on the ice minus his +/- per 60 minutes when he’s off the ice. In other words, it’s his +/- relative to his team. In general, this gives credit to players who play well on bad teams and penalizes poor players on good teams.”
They’ve also used variations to qualcomp over the years. I keep two versions on the stats sidebar on the right side of the page: qualcomp for the traditional look and Rel Corsi QualComp which averages the opponent’s Corsi relative to the team.
Again it’s a small sample of games and none of these metrics are ironclad, just helpful ways to look at on-ice situations.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 18, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
Again
my question is, how does the opposition’s +/- indicate the toughest opposition, especially for a defender?
Many of the best +/- players in the league right now are defensive dmen.
Doesn’t that fact make the qualcomp seem rather erroneous when attempting to determine how difficult the offensive opposition is for a dman?
O;Donnell, Klesla, Mezaros, Ference, these are representative of the toughest competition for a dman?
Meanwhile guys like Eric Staal, Sharp, Gonchar and Tavares are supposedly weak competition for a dman?
Sorry but using +/- as a basis for determining quality of competition, especially for a defensive player, is just plain inherently flawed.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
It's not just one players +/-
If it was just taking into account one players +/- then you would be absolutly right and i see how you’re thinking, but you have to realize that they are averaging all the players +/- that are on the ice against the player, forwards and defensmen. So you eliminate extremes, where it seems your concern lies.
Also, just to be clear. When you take all players on the ice +/- you essentially compare forwards to forwards and D to D. Since better forwards tend to have better plus minus then lesser forwards over time the stat becomes more and more valuable.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 18, 2010 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
With a minimum of 15 GP, the top three forwards are Joel Ward (-4), Steve Sullivan (+4) and Adam Hall (-10).
On defense it’s Francis Bouillon (2), Jovo (6) and Weber (-6). Bieksa is sixth in fact.
If you view Corsi QOC, then the top three D are Derek Morris (-3), Scott Hannan (2) and John Michael-Liles (11).
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 6:34 AM PST up reply actions
Yankee
again, the guys I listed above, would you consider them to be strong or weak competition for a defender?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Without looking at how they’re used on ice, I don’t know if they’re strong or weak right now. I would guess strong (they’re certainly paid as such) but there could be more to the story.
To back up a step, qualcomp sums the even strength on-ice/off-ice scoring differentials of all the players that defenseman plays against and weights them based on ice time/frequency. Corsi qualcomp is similar except it uses corsi differentials instead of opposing scoring rates. So if Bieksa plays 20 minutes tomorrow, 15 against Toews and Hossa, and five minutes against Bollard on the second line, the corsi rates of all these players is summed and weighted based on how much TOI Bieksa spent against them.
My apologies, I wasn’t clear about that above, I had to ask one of the experts with these stats.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
I think you may be
missing my point.
I know how those stats are formed, the problem is QC is based on +/-, and +/- is simply not a very good indication at all of how tough a player is to defend against.
Aside from that list above, last year Jeff Schultz had the best +/- in the league at 50, and Tom Poti and Mark Fistric were also amongst the leaders, but nobody would claim that those guys are going to cause defenders much grief.
Meanwhile guys like Martin Havlat, Kyle Okposo, Vinny Lecavalier, Mike DelZotto were some of the absolute worst +/- in the league, but were still some of the more dangerous guys to defend against.
It’s just that simple.
Maybe the stat is useful in other ways, but I don’t see how you can take it as being an indication of how difficult a defender’s opponents are.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I understand you fine
You don’t like the premise of the stat. You’re not alone.
I choose to view it as a gauging tool. It’s not just about Poti, it’s factoring in everyone else that Poti is on the ice with (aside from tossing Corsi on top it) I’m getting a different picture of the talent on the ice. If you loop it in with zone starts, it adds to the picture as well.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
Guaging tool
for what is the question, and if the basic building block of the stat is +/- there’s just no way that can be an accurate reflection of difficulty to defend against.
I also think that you can go backwards just as easily as forward with statistical analysis by factoring multiple stats together, particularly ones that aren’t terribly focused to begin with, I think it can make the picture muddier instead of clearly.
I also question the use of these sorts of highly complicated statistics in a flow game like hockey, baseball is totally situational, it’s static, you can analyze the hell out of it statistically and I think gain accuracy as you go. Not so with a fluid, dynamic game like hockey with shifting on the fly, various combinations of player numbers, types and situations at any moment, and a constantly shifting transition from offense to defense.
I think with a game like that only simple stats or at least ones that are highly focused can have much relevance let alone accuracy.
Zone starts exactly how does that work?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Isn't it
Just how often they start in each zone on a faceoff?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
That's what
I wasn’t sure of, but if so, how relevant is that with AV benchbossing, I really don’t see him changing based on that very often, maybe in odd man sits but at even strength he seems to just roll lines and change when ready more often than not, am I wrong?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I guess we'd have
To take a look and see – but if Bieksa is getting more defensive zone starts than the rest that can’t just be random line rolling
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
It could be
this early in the year.
That’s the other problem with these sorts of stats, way too small a sample size to be very useful especially if just using this year’s stats.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
regarding forwards, at least, AV’s been making a pretty conscious effort since last year to get the Sedins into offensive situations as much as possible (which makes a lot of sense to me). (I’m extremely pleased to see that the Sedins essentially lead the league in offensive zone start %—there’s like four goon types [including hordichuk, hilariously] as well as Kyle Turris ahead of them, but that’s it.)
You’re right that the defence in general is somewhat less regimented, although I think certain patterns are still pretty clear. For instance, when Willie was here, he routinely started in the defensive zone half again as often as he started in the offensive zone (again, for good reason). This year AV looks to be using Rome, and especially Alberts and Ballard lots in the defensive zone, while giving Eh,Ed,H, and Bi similar duties (though Ehrhoff and Edler get slighlty more offensive opportunity than Hamhuis (i believe correctly) and Bieksa (not so sure)).
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah if you look at zone starts with a minimum of 10 TOI (to filter out the BizNastys of the world) our first line is #2-#4.
You’re right Ballard is pinned to DZ starts.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
Better answer here: http://www.behindthenethockey.com/2009/10/8/1077082/frequently-asked-questions-4-zone
Zone starts are contextual; using OPCT allows you to see what zone the player starts and ends his shift in. If a player is used primarily in the offensive zone, it’s because they’re your best bet to score (Sedins top that list for us). If you start in the defensive zone more often you’re the best bet to stop a goal; that’s Malhotra/Torres/Hansen. In the defensive zone Rome and Alberts lead the D. Bieksa is pretty evenly used in all three zones.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
That makes sense
but doesn’t that sort of fly in the face of QC as well?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I don't know of any hard and fast rule that links them
If you look at last season there is a correlation: with a minimum of 40 games played, Mitchell, Kesler, Raymond and Johnson lead our Corsi QC and all saw more defensive zone starts than otherwise (Johnson lead all forwards and Mitchell lead all D). Kes and Raymond were more middle of the pack but that speaks to how AV used them: offensively if they’re behind and perhaps defensively in the latter stages of a game.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
of a game they're winning I mean
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
Well if
Bieksa is supposedly facing the toughest competition, wouldn’t he be doing so in the defensive zone more often?
I don’t know, I just think these overly complex stats just lose all validity at some point, like I said you just can’t factor that many things together in such a dynamic sport.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Again, you’re not alone. Many people (including most VAN fans from what I’ve seen) don’t trust them. As Section said above, they’re still growing and the hardcore guys who work with them refine them every season.
I tend to trust these as a guide:
> GFON/60 and GAON/60 (which is similar to what you were saying below…or above…this thread is long)
> Corsi/Fenwick since it’s a plus/minus that count shots
> Zone Start
> Qualcomp (or Corsi Qualcomp which I must learn to transition over to)
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Yoata – you may take a look at Vic’s TOI tools too. From a game to game (or even period to period perspective) think they’re very informative in seeing shift charts and shot trends.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
sorry if you've
already answered (this thread is long)
but what exactly is qualcomp, I thought that’s what we were discussing?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
That I have to give to you
Haha, now that’s funny and I thought you had no sense of humour.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
NOOOO
ITS A TRAP
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
It is hilarious though
There’s a huge discussion that lasts two days, positions have been taken and no one is budging from from their positions then half way through day 2 of the discussion one of the loudest voices says"…wait, what is it?" At first I thought he was serious but then I realized he must be joking and that is funny stuff, especially coming from a guy you wouldn’t think would throw it out.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
It doesn't matter
whether it’s one player or a million, the question is whether +/- is the best stat to determine quality of opposition, especially in terms of defensive play?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I'll answer your question with a question...
Is there a better stat?
Corsi is probably the answer, because making shots involves less luck than making goals. And you definitely shouldn’t look at Qualcomp alone.
But Qualcomp (which is more sophisticated that +/-) plus zonestarts, plus TOI begins to paint a picture which is worth looking at.
SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!
Here's a better explanation...
This will probably make it much clearer then my ramblings will <http://www.behindthenethockey.com/2009/10/8/1076586/frequently-asked-question-2>
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 12:01 AM PST up reply actions
I've read that
yet again, basic question is, how does an opposition player’s +/- indicate how tough they are as opposition, especially in terms of defending against them???
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I think the stat is somewhat flawed, for the reasons you stated – but it’s probably the closest thing we’re going to get for a way to judge opposition toughness. I don’t really know how else you could do it.
Also, a defender with a high +/- could theoretically be tough to play against for a defender, since he could be very good at setting up the forwards, keeping the puck in the zone, etc.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
That's a stretch
If we’re talking about the toughness of competition for a defender, why would you not use ppg over the last 40 games or something?
Wouldn’t that be a better indication than +/-?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Well, you’d still have to take into account how many points were scored against too, since “toughness of competition” isn’t just for your own end
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
It is
in terms of defending.
That’s the real issue I have with it, I mean if you’re going to automatically give a player credit for good defensive play because of a stat, it should reflect that shouldn’t it? And I don’t think using +/- as the base does that very well at all.
GA/TOI would be a better indicator of defensive play.
And GF/TOI would be the best for quality of competition for a defender.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
So using the GF/TOI of the players a defender is on the ice against?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Yeah, you might be on the ice when a goal is scored but you may have nothing to do with the goal. You could get a plus just because you happened to be on the ice when your star player scored.
Same for minus
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Well I could almost understand that minus could be accurate. If a goal is scored when you’re on the ice then maybe you should’ve done more to prevent the puck from going in. But yeah sometimes it could just be a dumb error on someone else that causes you to get a minus.
Yeah, you might be on the ice when a goal is scored but you may have nothing to do with the goal. You could get a plus just because you happened to be on the ice when your star player scored.
All the CORSI and QualCOMP is just a view, a guideline, eye candy of sorts. I don’t like those stats, myself. I hate the baseballification of hockey. It hardly makes sense to even do it. And using +/- is even more ludicrous, IMO.
Nucks Misconduct
"Then I will see you in hell!'" - Han Solo
"We live in a country where John Lennon takes eight bullets, Yoko Ono is walking right beside him and not one hits her. Explain that to me, God! Explain that to me!!" -Dennis Leary
by Sean Zandberg on Nov 19, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
You could also get an assist
for just ringing the puck around and heading off the ice. All stats have a little bit of inherent flaw. The point of these stats is to eliminate the extremes and come up with an accurate measure of players relative strengths. Trust me when I say this, and I mean no offense as I am in the same boat, much smarter people than us work on these numbers and make sure they are useful.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah I know that but I do tend to agree with yoata that +/- might not be the best stat to base these new ones off of.
Well neither is points
because just looking at a guys points doesn’t tell us who he is getting those points against and how strong they are.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
And looking at
+/- tells us who that guy is getting his + and – from?
Sorry but how do you know whoever came up with this is so much smarter than any of us that we have to blindly trust that it is an an accurate reflection of anything?
Regardless, I prefer to do my own thinking, and it doesn’t take much to see that this stat is deeply and inherently flawed, especially in determining the toughness of competition for a defender.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I think you missed the point yoata sorry
Read what I wrote above. “In years to come we may even laugh at ourselves for using these stats. But as things stand right now they are the best we have and I think in the right context still useful.”
Again above I called them useful. In the right context they are useful. I never said anything about blindly following them.
I also said NEITHER is points. Indicating that neither points nor plus minus are without flaw when coming up with these advanced quality of competition stats. I agreed there are flaws with using plus minus as I agree there are flaws with the plus minus stat on it’s own. But there would be flaws in just using points as well.
And sorry if I am arrogant enough to believe that I am smarter than people who spend their time using advanced math to come up with these new stats.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Not questioning
the math, it’s you who is missing the point, the math is irrelevant if the premise is flawed, as it most definitely is if this stat is supposed to indicate toughness of defending. Toughness of creating offense against it could have more use but I still think there are other stats that could be moreso.
Context is exactly what I’m talking about, and in the context of defensive difficulty they are clearly not much use at all.
The same flaw with points exists with +/- making it moot in terms of comparison, but the inherent flaw with +/- is that it simply does not reflect difficulty to defend against, while scoring prowess of opposition certainly does.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
If I admit above that the premise
is flawed how can I be missing the point that the premise is flawed???
I admitted that there are flaws in using plus minus because it’s a flawed stat but there are also flaws in using points as well. I completely understand your point that points would be better because a D man is supposed to stop a guy from scoring so the amount a guy scores is more relevant than his plus minus. How can I be missing the point yoata? I get the point. I agreed with you.
But there are also flaws with using just points as I pointed out above. Hence why I said it’s the best we have now and in the future we will have better stats then this to use.
If your issue is with me saying that in the proper context these stats can be useful then we can agree to disagree since I am not going to back off that stance.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
you were
missing the point in terms of whether one can question a stat or not just because apparently someone smart came up with it.
The other point that you still seem to be missing is that in comparison both of those stats have the flaw you mention while only +/- has the flaw of not being an indication of difficulty of defending against.
What is the proper context for a stat based on +/-?
And if you think it is in terms of defensive difficulty, please explain how?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I said people who are smarter
work on them and make sure they are useful. Nothing more than that nothing less. So please don’t imply that I said they were above reproach or anything along that line.
Why would I yoata? I am not defending the stat. You are asking me to defend a stat that I admitted was flawed. How much or less flawed than any other stat is irrelevant to the conversation. I am just saying there are flaws in using points as well. That’s all. Pretty simple. They are both flawed. One more than the other? Sure. But not my point and not relevant to my point.
I think the stat is useful. I am allowed to have that opinion just as you are allowed to think it’s not.
Agree to disagree on that point?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
Please
not this again.
I don’t think I misunderstood your point about whether the stat should be trusted and why, I think you made it pretty clear that it should be and because of the supposed intelligence of it’s originator. So again let’s get off the typical semantics merry go round and stick to the point.
Also I don’t think I misunderstood that you were trying to claim that points was just as flawed in the context discussed, which it clearly is not, having the same sort of 1 flaw but far less of the inherent one that +/- has in this regard.
Difference is I have explained why I have the opinion I do of the stat, all you have done is abdicate questioning its validity in this context apparently because you apparently don’t think anyone here is smart enough to do so.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Why do you do this????
I just said above that both are flawed. One more than the other. But that the relative degree to which they are flawed wasn’t relative to the discussion. Which it’s not.
And I said USEFUL. I said the stats in the right context are USEFUL. That’s all. Just USEFUL. Nothing more nothing less. So don’t try to imply that I meant something else. I said smarter people than us make sure they are USEFUL. If you can’t see that what I meant by that was simply that there is some use for these stats in the right context I don’t know what to tell you. But don’t act like this is some semantic merry go round that I put you on. Cause I didn’t. I meant EXACTLY what I wrote nothing more and nothing less. If you want to read into more than is there go nuts. But I will reference this….“I was getting at exactly what I said, which is why you should try actually reading it.” – Yoata Nov 18th 11:24PM
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
Because
every time I infer the obvious from something you said you haul out the “that’s not what I said” bs.
The relative degree is only relative to the discussion it IS the discussion.
Look you are the one that took issue with me questioning the stat in the context it seems to be being used in, so don’t tell me I’m the one doing so. What you have yet to do is actually respond to my point of why I think it is flawed with anything more than “well smart people came up with it so it has to be useful” or “well all stats are flawed”.
So if you care to do so, then I’ll continue discussing the issue, otherwise, pointless as usual.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
OK so we came to the crux here
cause that’s not what the discussion I am having is about. I am having a discussion about the fact that the stats are useful in context. Not having a discussion AT ALL about which one is MORE useful. Never was. So clearly you are having a different discussion with me than I am with you. Probably the reason we keep going back and forth. Glad we got clarification.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
yeah sure
that’s why you keep avoiding my point at all costs, since it was my point that started this whole discussion it seems pretty fair to infer what you were saying as disagreement, which it clearly was, without actually being so, in your usual way.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I am not avoiding the point
and I am not sure why this is happening.
I agree with you. I agree that the stat is flawed. My point has always been that there are flaws in almost every stat in hockey, another point I think we agree on, and that when used in context these stats can be useful. Sure there are problems with them on that we agree. But I don’t agree that they are useless because of it. You disagree on that? It’s fine. Let’s do what I suggested earlier and agree to disagree.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
No
let’s do what I suggested earlier and stop replying to each other’s posts, as it is obvious that, while you are not being so blatant about it, you are still constantly trying to goad me into a fight so that I will get banned.
Done.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
No I am not
I was honestly trying to have a serious discussion with you. Not trying to get you banned.
Here it is. Since we obviously can’t have a normal discussion even though I was seriously trying. SEAN ZANDBERG. I am not asking I am telling you to ban me so that this type of incident on a thread never happens between me and yoata again. I wasn’t trying to bait him I wasn’t trying to start a fight with him. But we obviously can’t find a way to communicate in a way that allows for normal discussion. Please someone ban me asap. Thank you.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Section
C’mon, this is absurd.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 2:42 PM PST up reply actions
I am serious
something doesn’t work when I try to talk to yoata. I was in no way trying to bait him at all. Just trying to have a discussion. I don’t want to do this anymore. And I don’t want to have to avoid conversations on this page to avoid this happening again. So I want to be banned from this site ASAP.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
Easy solution dude...
make your point, let him make his response and once he starts pushing your buttons, let it go. YOU do not need the last word; we respect u here enough. No biggie. To use a poker analogy, yoata tilts the shit out of u. I get it, trust me.
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
There is really no need to be banned.
Everyone disagrees with everyone else at some point. Sometimes it gets heated. No need to ban yourself.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
I can't stop myself
from getting angry when he does this shit to me. I was trying to have a normal convo and he makes it into something it’s not. I can’t figure out how to converse with him in a way where that doesn’t happen. And I don’t want to be a part of this community if I can’t converse with whoever I want whenever I want. I don’t want to have to tip toe around. Maybe it’s my fault for phrasing my points the way I do. I don’t know. And at this point I don’t care. It’s not worth it. And since I tried to stay away once and wasn’t able to do it at this point I am taking the only step I can think of that will work. Ban me. It will be better for this site.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
No it won't.
Just relax. Deep breathes. Have a beer. Toke up. Watch a Wes Anderson movie. You don’t need to ban yourself. If it bothers you that much, then don’t converse with him. Im sure you’re not the first one to get angry at yoata’s comments. But let’s all take a step back and calm down, and concentrate on talking about hockey and hot chicks. Eva Green anyone?
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
The thing is I was
honestly trying to have a normal convo and we couldn’t do it. For whatever reason. No blame assigned to anyone. But I can’t just ignore a whole convo because yoata is a part of it. I won’t. And I don’t want this to keep happening. It’s not fair to the rest of you and it certainly isn’t worth the blood pressure rise. So I want to be banned ASAP please.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
No
not necessary. Avoid convos if they’re that stressful. Engage if you want, but with caution.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
Im putting that on my resume.
Sometimes Ive been known to post comments that aren’t thinly veiled jokes.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Not worth it CC
don’t worry about it. You guys will find some other blow hard who is funny once a month.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 3:28 PM PST up reply actions
No
Sean can’t fill that role as well as you.
I repeat, no need to ban yourself.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
So wise
Engage if you want, but with caution.
in so many situations…
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Yoata
you’d know all about that wouldn’t you? :P
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Unfortunately
I recognize wisdom but putting it into practice is more of a challenge.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Eva Green
Good taste!
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Eva Green is great
No ban me. ASAP. Thank you.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
Watched Casino Royale
a second time, just for her.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
I own
it
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
You betcha
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
No
You will not be banned.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
AHHHHH!!!!!!!
This reminds me of my last ever high school basketball game. My bestest Jeremy had never been T’d up and wanted to get his first technical foul. So he was beaking the refs hardcore. But they wouldn’t T him up cause of his rep. No matter what he said they wouldn’t do it. He wanted a T and couldn’t get one. I want to get banned and can’t get it done.
*Now please ban me
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
YOU
SHALL NOT BE BANNED!!
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
Black people can't be
wizards. Boom. Racism. Ban me.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Wrong
Merlin was black.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
He was racist
against his own people then. Doesn’t count.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
Black ppl can’t be wizards.
When Michael Jordan came outta retirement for the Wizards….. man was he bad.
(Obviously ignoring the other black ppl on that team)
John Wall
disproves your assertion Section.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
Racism doesn't have to make
sense CC. Jeez.
Ban me please. I am a racist.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
Section is climbing in your windows,
making racist comments.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
Sean, Yankee
Don’t ban him.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
Fuck you CC
let me have this.
BAN ME I AM RACIST AND I CAN’T CONTROL THE VOLUME OF MY POSTS!!!!!
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 6:03 PM PST up reply actions
LOUD NOISES
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
o.O
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Missy gonna come
and kick everyone’s ass for making this go wayyyy over to the side.
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
Oh and I would think
that for someone who gets angry when other people INFER things about what he said you would be less likely to infer things into what other people say. I certainly didn’t infer from what you said that you were attacking Bieksa. I took your word at face value.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Pointless?
You got pissed off at a guy up above in this very thread for inferring something into what you said that wasn’t there. Then you do it to me and its OK cause it’s you doing it? Unbelievable.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Not even close
And he admitted he was inferring it, meanwhile all I do is paraphrase you and instead of a reply to the point I get “I never said that” it’s always the same thing with you, which is why it is pointless.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
OMG
for fucks sake guys let it go.
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
And you know
when it’s me getting tired of an argument it’s gotten stupid.
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
OK yoata
You know that you aren’t paraphrasing me cause I have made my position on this ABUNDANTLY clear and you continue to attribute things that I didn’t infer and didn’t imply.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
oh god
Lets all have a beer and relax.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Wow guys
you’re on the same side and arguing about who’s more on that side…
My opinion: All the stats are flawed in some way or another when taken by themselves and in a small sample. The best thing is to look at them in a holistic way. Use data to build a framework of a picture, and overall those datum create an accurate general shape of things. Generally if you graphed out plus/minus or qualcomp or corsi, better players will be in a similar point on that graph. There may well be exceptions; someone may be at the stinky side of the graphy but is still considered a top player… and vice versa. But thats why I say ‘generally’.
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
So basically
stats are useful in the right context to tell us something about the players out on the ice? Which is what I have been saying all along. Not that they are the be all end all. Not that they are beyond reproach and not that they tell us everything we need to know about anyone. I simply said that these stats in context are useful. Never said to what degree they were useful. Just said useful. And I am having to defend that position for some reason.
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by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
Well...
…no, I’m not going to say what I was going to say. Let’s just say when a tea partier and communist meet for tea, I doubt they will agree on the things they agree on.
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
No
The premise is not flawed. The research says that these stats are predictive, especially in corsi’s case.
+/- tells us a player is on the ice either A) when his team is outscoring opponents, B)when his team is keeping them at a tie or C)when his team is being outscored.
the +/- rating of BTN shows us how well a player does relative to his team mates. Player X may be +27 and Player Y may be +5, but Player Y may look much better compared to his teammates, having a better rating than player X, telling us Player Y is probably a good player on a bad team. This is valuable.
Lastly, Qualcomp tells us whether our player is up against the other teams good players or their bad one’s.
You point at defensive D men with low point totals are the rule breaking examples.
They are probably just outliers. These exceptions will get watered down by the rest of the pack, which is pretty spot on.
SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!
None of that
explains how +/- is an indication of how difficult the opposition is to defend against.
Those are not just the exceptions, there are many at the other end of the spectrum as well, and throughout, that’s why +/- is not an indication of difficulty to defend against.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
+/- isn't
Qual comp, which filters how much a player is involved in scoring vs the rest of his team and then averages the amount the defender plays against players who are on the ice when goals are scored and prevented.
Players who don’t get outscored tend to be hard to score against and tend to score against you.
Remember, +/- shows us how good a player is at goal prevention as well as goal creation.
SCHIENDER FOR VEZNA!
No it doesn't
It just shows how often a player is on the ice when a goal is scored vs not.
I know what qualcomp is, and it is based solely on +/-, which again is no indication of how difficult a player is to defend against.
Just exactly what is it predictive of?
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
I honestly feel that the Sedins make up so much of our offense that it lessens both the need and the opportunity for our blueliners to chip in. We have 55 goals, and the Sedins have 24 points each – estimate 6 goals in which only one them got a point, and that means that they contributed to about 27 goals in total. That is roughly half of our goals.
I don’t know how well my theory stands up if properly analyzed and compared to other seasons and/or team in the league, I just kind of pulled it out of the blue. I’ve just been really conscious this year of how much the Twins drive our offense and how this (possibly) means reduced point potential for others on the team.
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something else to consider is how many times the twins are setting up the blueliners. edler definitely benefits from it, and a couple other D have as well.
Nucks Misconduct writer and ambassador. Also on Twitter.
"Waist-down, Toews is huge!" TSN's Ray Ferraro
Yeah true, the d-men must definitely get a boost from being on the ice with that kind of firepower. Though I guess most likely only blueliner is getting a point on a given goal that Sedins are involved in.
Wonder how many goals we have this year where 2 d-men get points vs. the average for the league? That might take some serious research/statistical wizardry to find out…
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by nucksandpucks on Nov 18, 2010 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
for pure rosterbatory reasons.. and because i saw jevants desire to sign weber next year:
FORWARDS
Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
Mason Raymond ($2.550m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($2.500m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.000m)
Rick Rypien ($0.550m) / Guillaume Desbiens ($0.550m) / Tanner Glass ($0.625m)
/ / Alexandre Bolduc ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Shea Weber ($6.500m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Aaron Rome ($0.750m) / Andrew Alberts ($1.500m)
/ Ryan Parent ($0.925m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) /Cory Schneider ($0.900m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,833,333; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$433,333
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Weber
will get 8 mill.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 18, 2010 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
naw, i dont think so… over 7m but not 8. comparable to what duncan keith is earning
Support the Prostate Cancer Research Foundation of Canada, grow a mo for Movember
That would give him the highest cap hit amongst d-men by 5 million.
I see something like a 10 year deal at around 6-6.5m/yr.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
He should put the screws to NSH
Make them give him 8 mill.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions
Well
Isn’t the highest Dman cap hit Campbell at 7.1M?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Chris Pronger makes that 7.6 mill in actual money
but his cap hit is low (4.9 mill).
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
Here's the list
You could probably argue he could hit $7m, but I don’t think many teams would even go that high.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
If Weber is smart
he will wait to sign until after Doughty signs. Just in case LA goes crazy with Doughty.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
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by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
Doughty
is RFA though
so different situation
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
How so?
Weber is RFA as well.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
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by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
shit
you’re right
i just assumed he would UFA… forgot how young he is
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Shit, I forgot too. I can’t believe that I’m just about the same age as some of these guys. What the hell have I been doing with my life
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Stamkos is younger than me.
Fuck my life.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
They're all
younger than me. Heck, some of the coaches are younger than me. :(
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
Guy Boucher?
I think he’s the youngest.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking about
Corey Clouston specifically, but yeah boucher too i guess…
"You'll be playing in England the rest of your career" Alex Burrows
"Just because we've been playing tonsil hockey
Doesn't mean you get to score the goal in my jockeys" FotC
'Nucks Misconduct Director of Fail and VP of bombed jokes.
I thought
he was around 14.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
The first time you start noticing relevant NHL players are younger then you is the worst. Next you’ll start wondering why 12 year olds are pitching in the majors.
by Canuckelhead on Nov 19, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
Weber is RFA?
Well nevermind what I said then. I have no idea how I goofed on that one.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
i dunno
would you give up 2 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, and a 3rd pick for Doughty or Weber? Because that’s what an offer of $6.2 – $7.7 mil will cost you. (Well those are 2010 offseason numbers… next year that range should be higher). I think that’s worth it for either player if you can afford that salary on your cap.
Above that we’re now in the 4 first round pick territory… that might be a bit too expensive for my taste (not to mention how much $$$ his contract would eat up on your cap).
And of course Nashville/LA has the option to match.
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
Giving up 4 1st rounders is almost not worth it for anyone. Maybe Crosby.
Two 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd is still a lot of lost prospects.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I would give up 4
first rounders for Stamkos.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Two 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd is still a lot of lost prospects.
One thing is for sure. Nobody would be stupid enough to give that up for someone like Kessel.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
by Jevant on Nov 19, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Oh burn
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Kessel
Would do a lot better on a team with legit top liners.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
True enough
Maybe we can swap Bieksa for him.
TRUCULENCE, BURKIE, TRUCULENCE.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Man
Leafs fans would burn MLSE down if they signed another expensive Dman. MG should definitely try to pull this off
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Agree
9th in goals right now and still very young, one of a very few to score as well as he did at such a young age.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
And
He’s basically being wasted on a Leafs team that should have rebuilt instead of trading top picks for a star player they can’t put to good use
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
probably
but Burke does have a very good track record of building through youth, obviously saw something he liked in Kessel though I don’t know how they will succeed with DP running the team and playing big minutes on the blueline, that may be what kills them, worse than the Kessel deal imo.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Absolutely
Kessel is an excellent player. Unfortunately, he is the only player even close to his skill level on the team.
I still can’t believe Burke made that trade. Do you think if the Bruins offered to trade back today he would take it (FWIW – that would be Seguin, Jared Knight and the Leafs 1st rounder next year) or is he too stubborn and would honestly not take the mulligan if given the opportunity?
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
i get the impression
he’s a bit of a douche, though
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
actually
i like burke… douche is the wrong word for him… he’s just brash
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
This calls for
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I think
Kessel is just very shy and quiet and it makes him seem that way. At least that’s what I’ve heard
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
He's been asked
and says he would although what else is he going to say, I think the jury’s still out and this could still end up being a good deal for the leafs, maybe for both teams but if Kessel is amongst the league leaders in goals for the life of his contract is it really so terrible aside from the miscalculation about how much difference he may or may not make to their success? He was certainly more of a known entity at the time, and in fact still is.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
That's fair
Although the miscalculation on how much difference he would make to their success falls 100% on Burke, in my opinion. That is his sole job as GM.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
If it is in fact
a miscalculation.
By the same token, I think the Chiarelli’s miscalculation about how much they would not miss Kessel was perhaps even worse, and especially chosing Krejci over Kessel to re-sign I personally think was not a very good call.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Horton
Isn’t doing too shabby either though
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
He's been
a pretty good replacement, but one I don’t think they thought they needed until it became so obvious last year that they could no longer score worth shit.
I mean they went from the 2nd highest scoring team in the league to the 2nd lowest.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
That is true
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
well
Having Savard and Lucic both miss half the season with injury didn’t help either… so the loss of Kessel was only a small part of it. And Krejci is still a pretty good player. If Kessel is selfish and a poor teammate as some rumours suggest, then I think Chiarelli easily made a brilliant choice.
Let’s not forget they were 1 win away from making the Conference Finals last year… which was a big improvement over the previous season.
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
Disagree
Kessel’s loss was the biggest part of it imo. He was their leading scorer, you don’t just throw that away and not replace it and expect everything to be fine offensively, they did it with Thornton and it set them back and they did it again with Kessel and it did the same.
Krejci is not the calibre of player that Kessel is imo.
And what would keeping Kessel have done to their chances last year in the playoffs? He is even better in the post season statistically, was huge for them the year before which made it even more puzzling for me. Certainly those picks did nothing for their chances at the Cup last year and that team is built for the now not 3-4 years from now, who’s to say that Seguin will do much for their success by the time he reaches his potential, which is still also an unknown and therefore a risk.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
To be honest yoata
with the number of picks they’ve had recently, have coming up and with Rask that looks to be a team built for the now and for the 3-4 years from now. Wouldn’t you say?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
No
I think I just said that.
They were built to win the last couple years and the next couple, beyond that when their stars start aging I could see mediocrity moreso than dominance, windows in this league don’t tend to last that long, unless you are the Red Wings.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
OK buddy
just asking a question. I thought maybe with the realtive youth of Bergeron, Lucic, Seguin, Rask and some of their other young players like Colbourne and with a couple of first round picks this year you might have thought they had a pretty bright future.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
Bruins
have Zach Hamill too.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
bonus first-rounders have a way of propping windows open, though :D
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
Kessel’s loss was the biggest part of it imo. He was their leading scorer, you don’t just throw that away and not replace it and expect everything to be fine offensively…
No, Savard was their leading scorer… he had 28 more points than Kessel the season prior to the trade. Unless you’re talking specifically about goals. In which case, your next point
they did it with Thornton and it set them back and they did it again with Kessel and it did the same.doesn’t make any sense, because his contributions are much more similar to Savard than to Kessel.
I agree that Krejci is not the calibre of player Kessel is, but all I had said was the Krejci is a good player, nothing more.
And what would keeping Kessel have done to their chances last year in the playoffs? He is even better in the post season statistically, was huge for them the year before which made it even more puzzling for me.
Uh, the year before, despite having the best record in the league, the Bruins were kicked out in the first round. Kessel had 4 points in that series. Last year they went to game 7 of round 2 and really should have won but for a freak collapse. Krejci had 4 goals and 8 points in 9 playoff games. That was without Kessel or Savard. So I’m thoroughly unconvinced that Kessel was their biggest loss, I still say that’s Savard.
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
yes
goals, and I didn’t compare the styles of the two players, just that each was the B’s best offensive weapon.
Kessel had 6 goals and 11 points and was +7 in 11 games for the B’s in the playoffs right before they traded him.
They struggled to score all last season and in the playoffs they scored 4 goals total in their last 3 games (all losses) to Phi in the 2nd round.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
their shooting percentages fell off a goddamn cliff from 0809 to 0910; that’s not all due to Kessel being gone. their GF was gonna come crashing to earth pretty much no matter what they did.
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
As soon as
They get a solid 1C then it becomes a good deal. I mean, they have Grabovski centering him right now. Not that he’s terrible, but I wouldn’t call him a top line center
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
This isn't an attack yoata
but I have to say I was a little surprised by your take on the Kessel deal considering how much you value first round picks.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
I think
Kessel is the kind of player you can give first rounders for and be pretty sure you’re getting your money’s worth in return
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I would agree to a certain extend
but second overall in a strong draft is different than a first rounder. I get that you won’t know where you will draft and the Leafs somehow thought they would be a decent team. But without Kessel that may be the first overall pick and they could maybe have had Hall. I guess my problem with that trade was that the Leafs made a big mistake when calculating how good they thought they would be.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
I mean in general Kessel is the kind of player you give up a first rounders for, but in specific situations you still wouldn’t want to.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
As I said
at the time Kessel was one of a very very select few that had scored as well as he had at his age, I’m talking about Crosby, Malkin, AO type company at that age.
He was also acquire for less than the B’s would have gotten had the leaf just signed him for that contract.
And he sure as fuck is a hell of a lot better player than Keith Ballard, he is an impact player, with the potential to be elite, that is exactly the kind of player you trade a 1st round pick for, and I have said so repeatedly, never have I said don’t trade them, just make sure you are getting top quality when you do so.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
OK guy
no need to get angry. I wasn’t referencing the Ballard trade directly or indirectly and I certainly wasn’t trying to say that your comment on Kessel undermined your argument on Ballard. I was just curious cause I know how highly you value draft picks.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
oh really?
And how do you know that then?
And don’t flatter yourself, I’m hardly angry, but you are definitely beginning to be condescending… again…
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Not at all
I asked a simple question and you started using swear words. Which indicates you are mad or frustrated or something. I know you value first round picks because you talk about it all the time. I don’t think it’s a secret that you value them and want the Canucks to keep high picks. I mean I just said I was a little surprised so what’s the big deal? You answered so thanks. I am glad I got the clarification I was looking for.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
Where
have I talked about it all the time???
Actually it indicates emphasis, but please do continue with your transparent condescension.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
OK yoata
I was under the impression you do value first rounders highly which was why I was mildly surprised about your take on Kessel. I asked for clarification and you gave it, although in a somewhat condescending manner as you did above in response to my question about the Bruins when you said something along the lines of “didn’t I just say that”, so thanks for the clarification I do appreciate it. You do value first rounders unless you are getting back a potentially high impact player that would be hard to find even in the first round? Do I have a grasp of your stance? If not please correct me as I am genuinely curious.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
I asked
where I “talked about it all the time” as you said?
My response was what it was because you asked me a question in response to a post that actually answered your question.
Therefore it wasn’t a real question, it was baiting, and you know it.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
No it wasn't
not even a little bit was it baiting. I said I was a little surprised to hear you say that. That’s not baiting. That’s just an honest reaction I had to what you said.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
Hilarious
I am rec’ding this.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Whatever
He’s a closet leaf fan, that’s what he gets!
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
LOL
Well done Jevant.
"Fact is, I cannot be denied. No matter what." - PK Subban
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 19, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
Kings would
in all likelihood match any offer sheet Doughty got, and Nash would likely do almost the same for Weber.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Yep
Same with Tampa and Stammer. You don’t let those kind of players go
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
agreed
i’m just questioning what you think it would be worth
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
I'll be shocked
if Stamkos isn’t signed very soon to a contract somewhere in the range of league max for the next 250 years.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
It’s going to be in Tampa, there’s no way Stevie lets a superstar like that walk away – especially since they just extended St. Louis
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Agree with all of you
Stamkos stays. What do they do with Vinny?
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by Section 312 on Nov 19, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
Hope and pray he gets better and stays healthier?
Who is going to take that contract? Who CAN take that contract?
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Montreal
still might if they slide but that’s about it imo.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
True
They already have a couple highly overpaid not very effective forwards
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
yeah
I didn’t realize how long they have their top 4 tied up for, don’t see it at all at 2nd glance.
How do you tell when blue cheese has gone bad?
Chances are, Tampa would either have to dump solid picks in for other teams to take Lecavalier or would have to eat a load of bad salaries.
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Just want to get promoted to the big leagues.
by Vancouverguy on Nov 19, 2010 10:04 PM PST up reply actions
They seem
To be doing fairly decent without him and Gagne right now…maybe try to dump him in Montreal for a decent return? Like PK? ;)
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
they'd have to take salary back though
or montreal will need to dump Gionta or Gomez somewhere else
by Beantown Canuck on Nov 19, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
That's also true. I'd probably give that up for Weber and/or Doughty
At the same time, I have to believe there is a “internal” cap hit in salary for any player at around $6.1 million, isn’t there?
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
For Doughty, absolutely. and I’d laugh and giggle and be really happy about it until LAK matched. For Weber, I’m pretty sure I’d do so also, but with maybe a little less mirth.
by Passive Voice on Nov 19, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
Hahahaha, I’d been meaning to go to capgeek and see how weber would fit in. Thought you’d like that…
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by kiyotok on Nov 19, 2010 9:27 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
am I the only one
wondering if yankee intentionally juxtaposed “offense” with “offence” in the title, suggesting something is not quite right in the land of Canuckistan D?
For some reason I feel ashamed too
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C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
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by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 18, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions
fooled ya with my yankeeism ;)
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by Yankee Canuck on Nov 18, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
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