A Quick Look At The Canucks' 3rd Line
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 11:01 AM PST
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PrintI have no idea what the Canucks are going to do with their lineup when Pavol Demitra and (or if) Michael Grabner return. There are several options. As of right now, I am liking the play of the top 2 lines. Line 2 is taking the heat off the Sedin-Burrows line. I think it's fair to say that Demitra (who may play by January 11) is going to find himself on line 2 at some point after he returns if not right away. This would most likely mean that Mikael Samuelsson will move down to line 3. I can't see them putting Mason Raymond there as he has no reputation of being a shut-down guy, plus he is thriving in his top 6 minutes. I guess you never know until it happens.
All things considered, I find it even harder to predict what they will do with Grabner. Sure, speed kills, but there is not a hell of a lot of grit in either Demitra or Grabner. They are more finesse players than anything else. Time will soon tell what management will do with both players, as their return draws near.
Having said all that...let's take a quick look at what Vancouver's line 3 has done so far..
-4 goals and 11 points in 35 games played this season.
-His points per game average is .314 this season, and was .365 last year.
-He is averaging almost the exact same average ice time as last year. Remember though, in his first 21 games as a Canuck last season he scored 11 goals and 3 assists. In the final 40 games of last season he scored a piddly 5 goals and 9 points.
-The tools for Woody to produce more are there. He has beauty hands but is not completely utilizing his abilities. We've known this time and time again. What is saving Wellwood right now, in my opinion, are several factors: a) he looks like a guy that could break out (a bit more) because of his crafty plays but yet has anything to show for it. b) I can't even count how many times he has backchecked and made smart plays in his own zone not only to take the puck away from opposing players, but also make the right plays to get the puck out of his own zone. c) He takes a licking and keeps on ticking. d) Admirable for a small guy. He is also a better center than any other bottom 6 centers.
-Wellwood is a +8 this season.
-10 goals and 18 points in 40 games this season.
-His points per game average this season is .450. Last season he averaged .395 PPG. It's awfully tough to imagine that he is producing more this season than last. How many times have you cursed him for either missing the net or not having his stick on the ice to receive a pass in front of the net? I may need to re-adjust my opinion of him a bit because he is improving statistically.
-Bernier is playing an average of a minute per game more than he did last season. That helps. He is on pace to have a career year in goals and points. Oh yeah, it's true. However, he needs to break out of a slump that he's currently in. No points in his last 5 games. How about 3 goals and 1 assist in his last 15 games? That will bring you back down to earth in a hurry.
-I like Bernier's grit. He is a fast skater and he whacks guys almost any chance he gets. Just gotta work on those hands, Stevie-boy. I'll be honest with you all...I don't see him ever scoring more than 25 goals in a season unless he plays in the top 6 for that duration.
-Bernier's +/- is at an even zero this season.
-4 goals and 9 points in 38 games this season.
-Glass is a great story. He has impressed since the start of the season with his tenacity and physical play. The most games he has ever played in an NHL season is 41 with the Panthers 2 years ago. He is 3 games away from eclipsing that. How in the blue hell did he only average 4:25 of ice time with the Panthers in 2007-08? Gotta be a typo. He averages about 10:23 with the Canucks and plays with heart and soul every shift.
-Glass is a +8 this season.
***************************************
Conclusion? That is a tough one. I don't see the Canucks trying to rid themselves of Steve Bernier, as they have invested so much in him, including re-signing him early. I sense that they are willing to be patient. Wellwood is a toss-up, in my opinion, but I lean more towards trade/waiver bait down the road if he doesn't produce more. Glass should remain on the team even if he gets bumped down to the 4th line with Demitra's return and Darcy Hordichuk gets benched or traded. I think Glass has earned that.
Regardless of my aforementioned opinions, I want the Canucks' 3rd line to be better. They have to score more! Putting Samuelsson there when Demitra returns is a start, but as a winger he'll have to produce when placed on that line, assuming demoting Raymond to line 3 is not an option. Sammy is averaging about a minute more per game in Vancouver than he has ever seen in his career. That plays a part in his statistical resurgence. Take away from that ice time and what will he do? Well, less obviously.
As far as I'm concerned, Michael Grabner may not get called up (or for very long), unless Alain Vigneault either puts Demitra on line 3 or demotes Raymond there. Don't see it happening. It may be time for us to bid adieu to Grabner until next season, barring some unforeseen injury.
It all depends on what you think the role of line 3 / line combos should be.
At this point I'd say:
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Demitra-Kesler-Raymond
Bernier-Wellwood-Samuelsson
Glass-Johnson-Rypien
Agree? Voice your opinions in the comments section.
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Jannik Hansen once again remains the forgotten man. I think the Nucks are getting enough depth where, if one forward starts to slump, another can be plugged into his place. Could come in handy, ’cuz we know there are going to be injuries during their …Roadtrip From Hell!!!!
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Hansen is a gifted two-way forward so its sad that he may not factor into this at all.
Demitra played so well with Kes last season that I assume they will try and reignite that connection. I would like to see Wellwood moved out but his skill at centre gives him an advantage. It seems crazy that Grabner wouldn’t be given another shot after how well he was playing before the infamous ‘soccer game’.
All in all this post really displays that the Canucks have some depth in their forwards and hopefully the return of Demitra will light a fire under some guys to start producing more.
Something that I’ve noticed with Welly is that he is playing more physical lately. It’s not gonna intimidate anyone too much but it’s just a little extra good in his game.
Bernier is a bit better this year, the effort is still there. He’s just not a one-shot-scorer and we’re gonna have to live with it.
I’ve really liked Glass this year, guy just plays his ass off every game. But he’s not a true 3rd liner, he may have some decent chemistry with the other two but just not enough skill to score consistently. He’s clearly being groomed to take Hordi’s role when he’s gone.
I think Demo should start off on L2 with Kes/Raymond, Sammy moves to L3 and Glass to L4 for Hordi/Rypien. L3 needs someone who shoots more, Sammy is obviously good for that.
Just call me Jay...
Given our up and down injuries and the difficulty (Ehrhoff/Luko notwithstanding) of making trades these days, I suspect we’ll just have “extra” fw’s for a while.
Burr-Sedin-Sedin
Raymond-Kesler-Grabner
Sammy-Demo-Bernier
Rypien-Johnson-Hansen
(Glass, Welly)
Play with the the 2 and 3 lines or their personnel as you see fit, but balance the ice time more, taking it from 4th if nec. Glass, Welly stay on 23 man roster. Rotate them in as other guys get hurt and/or become healthy scratches and whoever is playing best gets the call.
I kinda like putting a passer like Demo alongside a shooter like Sammy and seeing if they can click, tho.
I doubt a really big trade is in our near future given Bieksa and Demo q marks re their health, but maybe later depending on how things go. A healthy Bieksa is prob our most tradable asset, or maybe a Demo deal at the deadline, but it’s hard to predict at this stage.
Trade deadline this year is March 3rd, I think, and the Olympics don’t end till Feb 28th, so we’ve only got about another 6 weeks to make up our minds and finalize any deals.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
love the line-up!
That is exactly what I would do. Demitra, Sammy and Bernier could be a great third line. Re-unite the speed kills line as there are not many like it in the league and should draw alotta penalties. Switch around Ryp, Hansen, Glass, Johnson, Bolduc depending on the line-up and healthy-ness as that quick banging energy line! Sammy and Demitra play power play with the Twins and Keslords line.
Gives us the deepest and most versatile line-up
The only problem I see with that is that Demo isn’t really suited for a checking/3rd/whatever you want to call it line roll. He’s pretty much a top 6 or bust kind of player, and a fragile one at that; not exactly what one would like to see on the third line. But there are worse options out there.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 4, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
stop the conventional thinking, this aint Burke's team anymore
The third line is a name and that’s all, we don’t use Welly’s line against other top lines. We use either Kes’ or the Sedins’ Since our top two lines are defensively responsible we don’t have to fall into the top 6, bottom 6 philosophy. Play your top 12 players, as long as you have some defensively responsible lines and some lines that can cause physical havoc you are all good.
And if we need a shutdown line, Re-unite Kes and Burr !
Tell you what…AV puts Demo on line 3 and the guy will bitch. It’s not happening. He gets top 6 minutes or bust like Steckel said.
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
With Demo it comes down to PP time. If he get’s 11-14 min of regular ice-time get’s 3-4 min with the second pp unit, he will be fine. He has to realize that the team has already played half a season without him. I also think he would enjoy playing the skilled role with a trigger-man and a guy who recovers the puck. He does not have to do the dirty work. That line could really gel.
Hmm….nah, Demo’s a bitch. He wants to be a top 6 guy. Plus he already had chemistry with Kesler last year. May as well try that on line 2. Just my opinion. I respect yours. We’ll just see who’s right ;)
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Chemistry w/Kes also seemed to make Grabner a much better player. Oh well … Tired of the endless drudgery? Need your lines juggled, darling? Call Vigneault Shuffling Services, any time, all the time. Ask about our recall specials, too!
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
If various players seem to have chemistry and play much better with Kesler … maybe it’s not chemistry, and maybe Kesler is just good.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 4, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, he even made Sundin better.
(The Wrath Of Zandberg will begin in 10, 9, 8, 7 …)
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Play with the the 2 and 3 lines or their personnel as you see fit
If Demo is getting his ice time, he’ll be happy.
We’ll also have to see how brittle he is or isn’t, after he returns. This could even be his last year; look at how fast Mathieu Schneider went downhill. Yeah, MS was older than PD, but when the end comes, accompanied by injury, it comes quick for some guys. I’m getting that feeling about Demo cuz he’s healing so painfully slow.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
I wish he’d retire. Then the temptation wouldn’t be there for Gillis to re-sign him.
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
If he did re-sign, it’d be for a much lower rate.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
I don’t want that shiteball anywhere near this team after this season.
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
Next thought: We have a team playing pretty darn well just now, and we’ll soon add Demo, Grabner and Luko on the ice. Do we need a trade?
I mean, if a great deal is there to be had, we’ll take it it, sure, but we’ll be adding three starters to our roster anyway in the next couple of weeks, so even if we can’t find a great “quantity for quality” trade to leverage our depth, we’re still looking pretty good.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
center is where the canucks could use an upgrade
there are plenty of bottom 6 wingers, but the center depth chart looks like
hank
kesler
wellwood
johnson
rypien
i don’t consider wellwood a good 3rd line center. he’s defensively responsible and takes the body surprisingly well for a midget, and is usually above average on the draw, but he’s physically overmatched (size, speed) by most top line centers which means we’re always pairing our top 6 against the opponents top 6. plus his stubborn refusal to shoot the fucking puck from the slot is infuriating to say the least. apart from his niche as a shootout specialist there is nothing in his game that couldn’t be replaced by any number of veteran centers that could be aquired at the trade deadline, and the team would hopefully gain some size as well. i don’t care if wellwood is dealt, but i want him replaced. johnson and rypien should never center anything above 4th line.
when demo comes back i can’t see grabner playing ahead of him on the second line, but for the third line i’d take hansen and glass over him, so i don’t know if there’s room for both grabs and demo. demo is gone next year so grabner might have to wait his turn until demitra gets injured again, currently scheduled for mid march.
burrows and samuelsson are basically interchangable between 1st and 3rd lines, you could swap them back and forth based on who was playing well or not. neither plays consistently well enough to merit a lock in the top 6.
hansen is disappointing because he looks so good and fast some games, and then fades into the woodwork in others. if he had kesler’s work ethic he could become another kesler but there are too many times he doesn’t want to take the body or doesn’t want to block the shot and as such i’ll take glass over him. if the canucks traded hansen away i wouldn’t regret it even as much as i regret losing shannon to the sens, which is not much at all.
Hansen
Totally disagree on Hansen, he is one of the guys every team needs. Able to play on the 2nd- 4th lines, very versatile to have as a 13th forward, big, fast, decent penalty killer, doesn’t do stupid things with the puck, still young and maturing. Oh and cheap! The only problem with him is he does not have that defined role ala Hordi and Johnson. When that comes he will be an asset. If we trade him now we get nothing tangible for him and he will turn into a real good NHL’er.
Come next year after Kes & Raymond have been re-signed at higher rates, we’re gonna want/need some cheap fw talent to balance things out. Hansen sure looks good for that, Shirok and Grabner too. You gotta have some good, cheap fw’s on a team in the cap era.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
i don’t care if wellwood is dealt, but i want him replaced. johnson and rypien should never center anything above 4th line.
I agree.
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
burrows and samuelsson are basically interchangable between 1st and 3rd lines
I’m not so sure about that. Watching the Sedins with Samuelsson on the PP is pretty frustrating. The 3 Swede forwards are really good but none of them want to be in front of the net on the PP for the screen which helps the goalie out a lot. Burrows will park in front of the net and be the pest that annoys the other team, provides the screen, and will get those tip in goals.
No use in splitting up the top line if it’s working!
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
I would play Bolduc or Pettinger there instead.
I’ve wondered the same thing. I’d take an upgrade via trade though
Ahhh, Princess! (Pettinger), brings me back to 05-07, when it looked like he had potential as a good 3rd liner and PK specialist.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 4, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
Quantity for Quality
If this team is going to go serious places this year, I still think they need a “quantity for quality” type move.
Let’s be real – the 4th line probably won’t play much in the playoffs. So I would like 9 forwards I am comfortable with out there, and a top 9 I seriously believe can be the core of a championship team.
Right now, the top 9 are (IMHO) with everyone healthy: Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Raymond, Burrows, Samuelsson, Demitra, Bernier, Wellwood. Those are the 9 guys likely to play significant minutes in the playoffs, if healthy.
My personal opinion is that isn’t going to be good enough. Gillis needs to earn his money by figuring out a way to subtract one of the bottom 3 players on that group and add in a guy who can fit between the Sedins and Kesler or Kesler and Raymond on that chart. For example:
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Raymond-Kesler-??
Bernier-Wellwood-Samuelsson
or (probably more likely)
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Raymond-Kesler-Demitra
Bernier-??-Samuelsson
Option A is if you find a winger. Option B is if you find a centre (preferable, in my books).
The ?? needs to be an impact forward. Right now, the Canucks have, by my count, 3 impact forwards, and Raymond’s trying his best to make that 4. But I think they need another one to really go places.
4 impact forwards needed to go places....
On one hand I agree. On the other hand, Pittsburgh only had 2 “impact” forwards last year and look how that turned out. Same with Detroit in ‘08 (datsyuk + zetter, franzen was a freak anomaly). The Sedin’s are no Crosby and Malkin, but I think other intangibles are more important than the sheer number of impact forwards. Although 4 on the Canucks would be nice.
Sedin Sedin Burrows
Raymond Kesler Grabner
Bernier Demitra Samuelsson
Glass Johnson Rypien
(Hansen, Wellwood) yes they might waive wellwood which would suck because i still believe he had a lot of potential. with this lineup tho, they got 3 good scoring lines and a really tough 4 line, and if injuries occur. hansen is a perfect fill in.
that would be my choice.
wellwood
i have it on good authority wellwood found a new girlfriend a couple of weeks back and since then he’s been putting up some points finally.
coincidence?
yeah those Vancouver hookers are pretty sweet. haha
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
well it's about time
a third line center shouldn’t be pulling the goalie. now if she can get his shot off once in a while that will be a big improvement.
that sounds awesome
he is one guy that needs a kick ass gal to make him better.
The last thing we need is another center – the only thing keeping us below the tipping point right now is Johnson being on IR. The way I see it, things don’t get complicated until he returns – I like the Demo/Sammy/Bernier third line provided you don’t expect it to be the sort that rattles their opponents’ bones every shift.
I’m much more concerned about how the D rotation shakes out while Bieksa’s hobbled. It’s not so much that I don’t think SOB is playing solid two-way hockey or that Lukowich will be a step behind, it’s that I’ve seen Salo pull up lame or skate off something that didn’t look that serious at least a dozen times in less than 40 games. The dude’s made of crystal – I was gonna say bone china but even bone doesn’t shatter as easily as he does. It’s hard to hate him since he usually saves a goal a game with a great positional moment or a good stick – but it’s easy to hold your breath when someone leans on him the wrong way.
I do think a trade’s coming soon, almost certainly involving Schneider and one of Glass, Wellwood, Grabner or a fellow Moose prospect. If you’d asked me two weeks ago I’d have expected it to maybe involve Demo as a means of shedding salary and gaining more durability. One week ago, I’d have flipped to it being about replacing Mathieu Schneider (stupid bastard, forcing someone to sit in Manitoba now and still collecting his NHL check to boot!). Now, with Bieksa out, I feel like we’re desperate for help on the blueline and will have to give up more than we’d like.
Much as I’d love to see Neidermayer with Johnny Canuck on his jersey I feel like we’d bankrupt the team in the process. Same goes for Kovalchuk – even though Kovalchuk for Demitra, Schneider, Schneider and a third round pick next year sounds like something we could do, it’d be a nightmare in years to come trying to pay 80% of the team with 20% of the salary cap…
Let’s hope MG has some more magic up his sleeve, eh?
by CortezKennedy4Prez! on Jan 4, 2010 4:15 PM PST reply actions
You mean piss away too many prospects, or just the financial side of it? It’s no secret that Gillis wants Niedermayer. At least, that was the big story last summer drummed up by the team 1040.
I would give up a 1st round pick, Schneider and Hansen for Niedermayer to go for a cup run. Risky, yes, but do we really have much hope in beating the Sharks or Hawks in a playoff series this year…because I don’t see it.
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 4, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
Also, Jevant – why would you say the 4th line wouldn’t get much ice time in the playoffs? Did the Ducks shut down their grit guys when they won the Cup? Did the Hurricanes all transform into hands guys overnight in the final round when they were champs? We’re more talented than either of those rosters, from Luongo out, and a large part of the success we have is players who know their roles and execute accordingly. If someone breaks out to provide more than is asked (ahem, Jeff Cowan) then it’s gravy…
by CortezKennedy4Prez! on Jan 4, 2010 4:19 PM PST reply actions
If only... And give Bernier's physical prescence and speed to Wellfed.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jan 4, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
Wellfed wishes you could give Bernier’s meals to him instead of that physicality and speed.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 4, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
Keep drinking that Hansen Koolaid, yoata. Slurp slurp! haha. I kid.
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 5, 2010 12:17 AM PST up reply actions
I say get rid of Demitra (can we get rid of him?), Wellwood and Schneider for a defenseman and a prospect or draft. I don’t agree with mortgaging the future for a one time run, and I’m not sure we would need that or that it would help. The Canucks problem this year won’t be talent, it will, as it is every year, be heart and work ethic. I hope the early season struggles will take care of the heart and work ethic issues come playoff time.
I’ve never like demitra much… I relate it to his hair. The Canucks have a history of shitty overpaid bald forwards who don’t play as well as the brochure said they should in the last decade or so. This is fact. Messier. Bulis (omg i hated that guy). Sundin. Demitra. Bald guys and Canucks just don’t work. Heck, the balder Salo gets, the worse he gets too. Just saying.
Last season, Demitra put up about the same amount of points per game than he had in the recent past (I believe). He’s just too fragile.
And Sundin is god, so shut up! ;)
by Sean Zandberg on Jan 5, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
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