What to do with Hodgson?
by Jevant on Sep 28, 2009 1:15 PM PDT
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PrintIt seems relatively clear enough at this point that Cody Hodgson, but for injuries, wouldn't have much of a chance of making the Canucks this year. He's either been hurt, ineffective, or (horrors) he's just not as good as we all thought.
It seemed evident from day 1 of training camp that Hodgson was in a battle for a roster spot. Between returnees and new competition (remember when we thought that Michael Grabner had a shot?), there seemed to be one, or maybe two open spots on the (as expected) 13 forwards that the team would break camp with.
Then the injuries started. First Demitra, now Hansen. That seems to open up 2 spots in the top 13, one in a top-6 scoring role (Demitra) and one in a bottom-6 energy/reserve role (Hansen).
Sergei Shirokov seems to have sewn up Demitra's spot (although stranger things have happened). Unlike Hodgson, he's proved his worth throughout the postseason,
and he has enough of a KHL resume that the team seems to be willing to give him a shot. It looks like he'll likely be skating with Kesler on the second line, with (right now) whichever one of Samuelsson or Burrows isn't playing with the Sedins. That was the pre-Hansen-injury smart money, anyways.
Hodgson seemed to be unlikely to make the team. He is clearly behind Shirokov in terms of development, and unlike Hansen, had the option of heading back to junior without waivers. That, coupled with the fact he clearly seemed not to be ready, seemed like the best option.
Cue Hansen's injury. All of a sudden, a spot is open, albeit likely on the 4th line. That said, to me this is the perfect opportunity to allow Hodgson to get into the lineup in a top-6 role, at least on a conditional 9 game basis (the max before you burn a year on his contract) before the decision is made whether or not to send him back to junior. As such, if I'm MG/AV, this is what I do:
- Sedin-Sedin-Samuelsson
- Shirokov-Kesler-Hodgson
- Raymond-Wellwood-Burrows
- Rypien-Johnson-Bernier
What does this do? Burrows goes back to help the 3rd line for a few games, to allow the team to see what they actually have in Hodgson. Bernier (or Raymond) drops to the 4th line temporarily. And Hodgson gets his scoring line minutes. You can even flip the lines if necessary (IE - play the 3rd line at 2nd line minutes, and give the 2nd line 3rd line minutes, but scoring responsibilities).
This allows a fair analysis of a (hopefully by now) healthy Hodgson, and the only cost is a few less minutes for Burrows and Bernier. Admittedly, it's not fair to Burrows, but the team has already said that if he needs to go back into a checking role, that's what he's going to do.
Hodgson has nothing to prove at junior. Give him a few games on the 2nd line (now that he's healthy, or healthier) to give him a chance to prove something at this level. If it doesn't work, send him to Brampton after 9 games, and cross your fingers that he's not just a CHL star.
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I disagree. You don’t tinker around with a lineup for the purposes of trying to help one 19 year old bloom. I’m not sure if it would be beneficial to either party. The rest of the team won’t respect the kid if they all have to play nice to accommodate him, especially when he hasn’t earned it. Hold on to him for the 9 games if need be perhaps, but he’s the extra man. If Raymond, Bernier, Shirokov, or Welly stink it up, pull one of them down to line 4 or make them sit a game or so and plop Hodgson into a 2/3 line slot. If the team is solid, then let him sit in the press box while practicing hard with the team for his trial period. Either way, he’s done after 9 games barring some spectacularly miraculous show or more crazy injuries to others. Personally I would send the kid down right now and keep Glass instead out of respect for the strong show at camp.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 1:35 PM PDT reply actions
You don’t tinker around with a lineup for the purposes of trying to help one 19 year old bloom.
Really? Isn’t that what everyone is pretty much suggesting they do with Shirokov? And why has Samuelsson been able to be “assumed” to be 1st or 2nd line material, even though he’s never really played that role much (and has a career high of 45 points)?
For the CHL player of the year (beating John Tavares, no less), I think it’s reasonable to consider an exception.
No. Shirokov is there because there is a spot OPEN due to Demo’s injury. That’s not tinkering, that’s plugging a hole with the best part available.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Really? Isn’t that what everyone is pretty much suggesting they do with Shirokov?
No, because Shirokov led the Canucks in scoring in the preseason. He stepped up. He clicked with the Twins. He’s a sure thing right now.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
pre-season scoring means very little
Remember, he’s playing against many players who wont even be in the NHL this year. Shirokov may have showed some scoring touch but if he’s not playing top 6, other aspects of his game will be weighed more heavily in him making this team.
With no Demitra for a while I think Shirokov takes his place. It’s not like his preaseason competition was a bunch of punks. Edmonton iced a lot of their regular team for starters. If preseason scoring doesn’t matter, then his play besides the scoring part was ahead of many of the others as well. I finally saw him backchecking last night, so this kid is going to do whatever it takes. I don’t see that jive in Hodgson. I just don’t see it. He’s either hurting, overwhelmed or both.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
I think Shirokov takes Demitra’s place on the roster. He was a dominant player in the KHL which is at a higher level than the AHL and especially the Juniors (cough Hodgson). He also put up awesome numbers in the preseason. I wouldn’t even mind him playing with the Sedins, but it’s Burrow’s spot first.
I was fairly confident Hodson was getting the axe into the Juniors until the preseason injuries popped up.
Also, I heard that Gillis is trying to get his payroll as close to the cap as possible so that it maximizes the Injury Reserve coverage. This might give Hodgson a chance to play some minutes as his NHL salary is bigger than some of the other prospects.
I have a question about Hodgson: Is he eligible for the AHL when he turns 20 in February or does he have to wait until the following season?
Dropping Burrows to the third line is madness. Silent G hasn’t played well enough to bump the top 6 out of their spots, and is he really a 3-4 line kind of player? Keep him for the 9 games, sure, but only slot him in if there’s an injury, or if someone’s struggling.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
I agree on your comments about Glass as well. He has to be rewarded doesn’t he?
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Glass has outplayed Hodgson to this point, perhaps. But unlike Hodgson, you have options.
If Hodgson had any option other than “sent down to junior, gone for the year”, I say he doesn’t make this team. To be honest, I hope we have 13 better forwards. But I doubt Glass is one of them, and he can be sent to Manitoba.
However I believe with Glass we run the risk of losing him altogether on waivers, do we not? I’m not sure his status but I think so? Anyone know?
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Are we worried that much about losing Tanner Glass here, or are people just content to send Hodgson down to junior? Not trying to pick a fight, just curious.
I think players should be rewarded by what they’ve accomplished in camp and the exhibition season, not on what they might do in the fiture.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
I am content to send Hodgson back to junior AND I don’t want to lose Tanner Glass either.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree on your comments about Glass as well. He has to be rewarded doesn’t he?
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Silent G hasn’t played well enough to bump the top 6 out of their spots, and is he really a 3-4 line kind of player?
Those are my thoughts as well. CoHo hasn’t earned that at all. Burrows should be starting with the Twins this year. Plus…we are trying to ice the best team on opening night and WIN.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
first time poster here!
I follow the Canucks quite closely and I’m from Winnipeg so I see their talent develop with the Moose. I believe if Hodgson makes the Canucks(quite probable now with the injuries, but may get sent down if he doesnt perform when Demitra returns), he’ll be centering Kesler as he had much success playing the wing last year with Sundin. I don’t see Shirokov playing top 6, as the Canucks rarely reward top 6 spots to finess type rookie wingers who need to put on some weight(ex Raymond). Burrows should play wing on either the first or second line with Shirokov playing third line or even getting bumped for Hordichuk, depending on the teams we play.
Does anyone have any insight on how we are going to get under the cap by the beginning of the season? We are approx 2.7 mi over according to nhlnumbers.com, although some of the defensive salary included will be nullified by demotions to the AHL.
We’re saved from cap doom on account of Demo and Schneids being out a month or more. Their salaries don’t count towards the cap while under long term injury status. So we’ve punted the problem off until November. Until then, we can look at what we have and MG has time to make some moves, perhaps counting on some teams sucking out of the gate and looking for spare parts (and willing to pay presumably with low-cost roster players and/or youth).
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Rome signed a 1 year 1 way contract
so if he gets demoted we will still be paying him $550,000(which I dont think they want to do and Manitoba cant really afford) to play in the AHL. The only way around this seems to be trading him or putting him on waivers and hoping he gets claimed. does this sound right? or maybe they keep him until Schneider is back and trade/waive Lukowich
Actually, if Hansen is put on long term injury as well, there’s room to hold on to both Rome and Luko for now. We can keep 23 on our active roster in total. That’s 13 forwards, 8 D-men, and 2 goalies. So there’s room for Rome and Luko at spots 7 and 8 with Schneids out, and there’s room for Glass or Coho at spot 13 with Hansen and Demo out. We don’t have to lose any of them quite yet. But once November comes around, something must give, in terms of both roster spots and in terms of Cap issues.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
So who doesnt make it
by your projection? rypien, hordichuk or hodgson?
i have them going:
Sedin-Sedin-Samuellson
Kesler-Hodgson-Burrows
Raymond-Wellwood-Shirokov
Rypien-Johnson-Bernier
When Hordichuk plays Shirokov or Raymond sit and Bernier moves up to the third line
Here’s my guess. I’m thinking they keep Hodgson, but if it were up to me I would keep Glass. So I have it as so:
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Shirok-Kesler-Samuellson
Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier
Rypien-Johnson-Hordichuck
Mitchell-Bieksa
Edler-Salo
Erhoff-SOB
Luongo
Raycroft
With Luko, Rome, and CoHo sitting out until someone sucks or someone’s injured, etc.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ll second that roster, except to put Glass on the bench, and I don’t mean Salo either :) I guess that would put Hodgson in Brampton imo
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I agree with you. I’m just saying my guess is that they will actually go with Hodgson.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
And I don’t agree with the point on Shirok. To starts, If that was true, they wouldn’t have tried him out with ONLY 1st and 2nd line players pretty much the entire preseason (except for in Terrace when none of those players played). Secondly, Raymond and other finesse rookies (have their been others?) never showed the poise or finish or consistency that Shirok has shown in preseason. I think they would be silly not to give him a shot at the spot left open by Demo’s injury.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
The Sedin twins
came in undersized and played third line when they were drafted partly bc of the personel they had in place at the time and also bc they didnt want two rookies logging second line minutes. The only way I see Shirokov playing top 6 is if Hodgson doesnt. I just dont see them playing two rookies top 6
Which is why I’m concluding Hodgson doesn’t!
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
possible as well
because if Demitra was healthy at this point, I’d have Hodgson getting the axe this year and Kesler moving to center
Sedins
were kept on the 3rd line far too long, but they were not Crow’s boys, so they rotted despite having plenty of ability for 2nd line duty.
Hopefully this management has more sense when it comes to their young prospects… but I don’t see it so far…
I don’t see Shirokov playing top 6, as the Canucks rarely reward top 6 spots to finess type rookie wingers who need to put on some weight
Shirok is a rookie … and then again, he isn’t. He played in the KHL for 2 years, which out-talents the AHL these days, led his team in scoring (the old Red Army squad, I think), and he’s 23 years old, aot say, 19 for Hodgson.
So yeah, technically Shirok is a rookie and will be treated by the league as such, but I don’t think that’s really the way to look at him. I wonder how AV views him in this regard?
Funny
how he and Hodgson are both relative unknown rookie prospects but one was given twice the icetime (and linemates) of the other in preseason…
I don’t buy that at all. Shirokov was impressive with nothing as linemates his first game. That’s what got him moved up to the top lines where he continued to impress, and that’s what got him the minutes. CoHo was tried with a few different configurations, including the Sedins on the PP. He did not shine at any point.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree
I think he did shine for moments, but he wasn’t given near enough opportunity to have more of those moments and perhaps end up on the scoresheet, which is really what got Shirokov noticed.
Dunno why you’re into this conspiracy theory; Gillis would love to have a super-rookie on the team piling up the points in a cup-run year. CH just hasn’t done enough yet, and he himself has said he’s lacked explosiveness in his first stride.
If it were a conspiracy, he’d be cut already. Instead he’s getting the chance to heal, practice, improve and shine. Can’t ask for more’n that. I hope he pulls it off.
Why is it a conspiracy theory?
To me it’s just facts.
Fact is Hodgson has been low man or very close to it as far as icetime in most of the games he’s played in.
To me that begs the question “why”, if, as they claim, they want to see what he’s got?
I just don’t see how you can claim he’s been given a chance to shine.
Why? Cuz he was playing hurt and was playing poorly. He couldn’t even take contact in camp, initially, and was losing out b-a-d on the basic puck drills.
But that's not what they are saying
Gillis specifically said that the inury cannot be used as an excuse.
So which is it?
Shirokov got noticed not because he was on the scoresheet, but because he was HIGHER ON THE SCORESHEET THAN ANYONE ELSE ON THE TEAM AND GOT POINTS EVERY GOD DAMN GAME HE WAS IN. I’m not sure what else there is to say about that. Why oh why would management give him a shot and not CoHo? Do you think they were scheming to keep the ‘good minutes’ away from him? What would be the point of that!? The answer is simple and obvious to anyone who watched the Canucks this preseason. He did NOT perform well in the minutes he was given. So he wasn’t given more. Period. It seems pretty obvious to me.
Let me explain it in plain English. A summary of Canucks training camp 2009, a tale of two players:
Shirokov plays well. Shirokov gets points. Therefore, Shirokov gets ice time with good players. Shirokov gets injured. Shirokov comes back. Shirokov plays well again and thus gets more ice time with good players.
Hodgson starts injured. Hodgson finally plays. Hodgson is given a shot on the PP with the Sedins. Does nothing with it. Plays with players like Wellwood and Raymond, who had strong preseasons. Still does nothing. Continues to do nothing other than maybe one or two decent but unspectacular shifts and one nice shootout goal. Does not get much ice time as a result.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I guess we disagree
on what constitutes giving a top prospect a real chance to show his stuff.
You think giving him less icetime than any/almost any other player on the team every game = that, I think doing so basically says to him we’re not really interested in seeing what you’ve got, we’d rather just save that extra year of contract status regardless of what it means to your development.
Again, I will say that I am not claiming he definitely is ready, what I am saying is I don’t see how anybody could know based on the opportunity he was given.
I can see both points being made. For one..Hodgson struggled early and then recieved shitty icetime to make amends as the games went along. He had bottom 3 minutes for most of his games. Harsh? Perhaps.
At the same time..he really did struggle. Would an extra 5 minutes per game have helped him? He looked hopeless out there most of the time.
If he plays 9 games this year for starters, we’ll see. If Yoata makes me eat my words I will puke them out. Oh yes.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
You shit! I look away for 5 minutes and then…bang
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I made a fanpost too… didn’t see yours Missy, must have been writing mine when you posted. Looks like you beat me though :)
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh geez. If you would make the title: “Canucks Make More Cuts!” I would just add it to the front page. Google SEO loves that stuff.
i tweeted it with a longer name, so that it would show up under the canucks.
http://canuckpuckbunny.blogspot.com
GO CANUCKS GO!
Yeah, but it matters in the Title as well, trust me.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I did add a hat tip to you and Beantown though, sorry for not doing that initially
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 28, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks Sean. You know I live for those hat tips.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the roster suggested by beantown Canuck. It is madness to put Coho on the second line to give him a chance to bloom. Jevant, games are two points now, remember? And last year winning the division game down to the final few games and mere points between teams. We need a second line that can score and CoHo just can’t keep up. Give him third or fourth line minutes, if any.
Well, I did suggest 3rd line minutes in a scoring role. But I still think my “madness” isn’t that mad. And yes, I do remember the games are worth 2 points. I also know that Hodgson is too good for junior. I’m not convinced that CoHo “can’t keep up” when healthy. Give it a few games.
Jevant knows
Give the kid a real chance before you crush his hopes for a whole year.
At least if he truly doesn’t belong he’ll know he was given a fair shake.
haha
Thanks Yoata. My albeit limited observation on Hodgson last year suggested to me that he had nothing left to prove in junior. MVP of World Juniors, CHL player of the year. What more must he do in junior?
Exactly.
I really can’t see how this sends Hodgson any direction but backwards.
Only hope for progress would be if he could lead his team to a Mem Cup, not great odds.
That said...
Brampton is going nowhere this year. He would immediately be on the trade block, and would certainly be dealt.
I almost don’t want that to happen though. If he goes to Windsor, another 100+ game season is on deck for him.
Well if he hasn’t been cut by now, then he’s not gonna be till 9 games later. BTW, do those have to be 9 games where he’s specifically one of the 20 who will play, or are they any 9 games where he’s on the roster of 23?
It’s got to be when he’s on the 23 roster, otherwise they would keep him for a few months just say they can practice him and mentor him with the team, they’d never have to put him back down.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Well yeah … which is why I ask. The usual phrasing is “he can play in 9 games” … but what if he’s on the 23-man roster and doesn’t play? Does that game count? Is there a secondary limit to prevent this sort of thing (e.g. 9 games or Christmas, whichever comes first)?
He’d burn a valuable roster spot but that’s only if no one’s injured, and in the meantime he’d be working with NHL coaches, practicing with NHL players, and healing (if that’s really his prob).
Gillis ain’t shy about gaming the system. I doubt he’d burn the roster spot for too long if he didn’t have to, but hey, if Coho truly is recovering and progressing, who knows? So I’m just wondering what the options are.
I’m certain it must be the first 9 games of the season, regardless of any shenanigans. Nothing else would make sense and anything else we would have seen before somewhere by now I’m sure anyway.
by Beantown Canuck on Sep 28, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not as sure as are you, tho I’d need odds to bet against it.
We might not have seen it elsewhere tho because it’s a weird situation when a team wants to extend a rookie on the roster and take up a slot in doing so. The combination of Coho’s junior dominance, coupled w/his injury at just this time, culminating in his mediocre preseason … can’t recall when I’ve seen that before, if ever. Add in the LTIR situation (3 regulars down already?) and it gets even weirder.
Weird thing is
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/teams/stats/VAN/preseason
Hodgson tied for 8th on the team in preseason scoring despite his supposed poor play and very little icetime…
Most notably, he scored as well as Glass in 1 less game played, fewer minutes and was a better +/-… so wtf?
Scary, but not surprising thing is, not many outside the twins, Shirokov and Burr did much scoring at all…
Stab me with a dull knife, Smoboy. I beg of you
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 29, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
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