FTF's Take on Ehrhoff & Lukowich
by Mr. Plank on Aug 29, 2009 7:05 PM PDT
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PrintPlank here from Fear The Fin. Sean had a solid piece on the two Sharks players Vancouver acquired yesterday, but I thought I'd pop in and augment his observations.
Offensively: Very good skater, although he can tend to carry the puck too much and make some egregious turnovers. Other times he will carve through the neutral zone and really put on the burners. It depends on the night. Has a whale of a shot, and while he had trouble putting the puck on net, towards the middle of the season he went to a 3/4 slap shot and did a much better job in that regard. I'd assume he does the same next season. Power play production is excellent and led the team by a wide margin according to BTN (ignore Semenov there, he had very little PP time). As mentioned before, a good skater, and able to carry the puck below the circles. You're going to be getting a very mobile and active defenseman in the offensive zone as long as Vigneault gives him that opportunity.
Defensively: Definitely not a strong suit here. Tends to make bad reads with the puck at the blueline, and lacks physical acumen. He's definitely what I would describe as "soft", but more than worth his price as long as he is played with a physical stay at home defenseman- probably not a problem considering Vancouver has a lot of depth in that type of player. He was paired with Douglas Murray last season, so maybe Mitchell or Bieksa? Depends on Gillis' impending trade of course, but those are the two that stand out at first glance.
Role: First team power play, very limited PK time, second pairing defenseman. Some nights he's going to look great, the next night he might be better off in the press box (hence the nickname "Error-hoff"). His contract and skill set are definitely worth it though, especially since Vancouver needed some offense from the backend. Very good pickup, and worth 3x what you gave up to get him.
Offensively: Meh. Not too much to say here. You're going to want to pair him with someone who can put the puck in the net on the backend if you're expecting any output from that pairing. Decent to below average speed, definitely a depth guy. Makes smart and conservative passes but isn't going to push the puck up the ice like Ehrhoff will be able to.
Defensively: Meh. First twenty games of the season he looked good, but as the year wore on he tended to slide south. He'll be in a stay at home role next season, but is prone to making a bad pinch every once in awhile. When that happens his skating ability will be exposed.
Role: No power play time, depth PK, bottom pairing defenseman. Not trying to bag on Luko because he's got a great personality (and an excellent singing voice), but my guess is that he was thrown into the deal at the last minute as a favor for San Jose. Good team guy though, and his contract won't be an issue of vast overpayment or anything of that sort.
*****
Obviously Gillis took Wilson to the cleaners here, and I'm sure you're very happy with the deal. Some FTF readers may be by later to chime in as well, so play nice. Especially you, Temujin- we may forgive, but we never forget ;)
Cheers, and good luck next season.
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My memory of Ehrhoff?
Game 3 of the 2008 Semifinals against Dallas – Error-hof inexplicably ices the puck for no reason, after the lines (I believe Joe Thornton and crew were on the ice – could be wrong) were exhausted from the effort of trying to salvage the series.
What immediately follows? The game-winning goal by Dallas. Dallas goes up 3-0 in the series.
Though Plank was referring to something else, it’s true – we forgive, but we never forget.
by Conico do Mayo Miracle on Aug 29, 2009 7:22 PM PDT reply actions
This...
For the first 50 minutes of the game, play him like the #1 stud dman. Then, sit him.
His braincramps like his are horrendous.
Gonna miss you, Ehrhoff.
by IsThisTheYear? on Aug 29, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Ehrhoff and Lukowich suck.
They are terrible. I mean when they were with San Jose just yesterday morning, I would consider them decent hockey players but now that they’re playing for Vancouver…
-The dude responsible for this mess
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
ehrhoff and lukowich
thanks for taking them off our hands.
MeThinksSports, Giants, Sharks, and Randomosity
Ehrhoff is pretty inconsistent, but his skating is good and he has a great shot (albeit very inaccurate – you’ll become very familiar with the call, “Ehrhoff just wide!”). Sometimes he can just turn on the jets and be a fourth forward, and other times you remember why his nickname is “Error.” Actually, that tends to be most of the time. He sometimes forgets he’s not a forward and tends to get stuck deep in the offensive zone, so he’s best paired up with a stay-at-home defenseman.
Lukowich isn’t much to call home about, save for his singing talents that Plank already mentioned. He has little to no offense (never scored a goal as a Shark), and his defense is kind of spotty. My one memory of him (aside from the metal-inspired Jingle Bells) is a miracle pass that was misplayed by Turco and ended up with Marleau getting the GWG in the last 30 seconds of the game.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
Inconsistency doesn’t fly for long under Alain Vigneault. If what you guys are saying is true, they will be dealt with.
Oh, and it is true that your mascot is f**king ugly as hell :)
I appreciate the post, Mr. Plank and I appreciate the insights from the Sharks fans. Thanks to all of you. See you in some game thread soon!
One more thing
According to Wikipedia, Ehrhoff is the 7th-highest-scoring German in NHL history. I’m not sure if that says more about Ehrhoff or Germany, but it’s something.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
The rest of us Sharks fans realize that you’re right. Somehow we were holding Christian back.
/Same with Matt Carle…
Jon Casey fan since '84
Thanks Plank
I read somewhere in the comments of the FTF fanshot on Friday that was spot on: Ehrhoff was the target and Lukowich was the toss in (or price we had to pay, depending on your outlook). The Vancouver papers are already talking about stashing him in the minors just to help get back under the cap.
Sean’s right about Ehrhoff though: if we makes too many mistakes, Vigneault will bench him fast. Anyone not named Sedin seems always on thin ice with him. Then we’d be back to Aaron Rome. Good god.
Also, enjoy Patrick White as best you can. Here was the last update we ran which we mentioned him. If he ever makes the Sharks as a permanent player, I think we’ll owe you a beer or ten.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
Obviously Doug Wilson is a genius
He saw how talented your team was getting as the Sedin brothers mature……..so he had to send some mistake prone defensemen your way to ensure we score enough goals to beat you.
Its all part of the plan.
by SanJoseLandShark on Aug 30, 2009 9:11 AM PDT reply actions
I watched him too.
SJ fans, they have this new thing called TV now. It means we can see Ehrhoff play too.
The kvetching about him from Sharks fans is funny. He makes no more mistakes than any other D’man…its the nature of the game…mistakes will happen under pressure. Its how your teammates back you up when you make one.
Thanks for the great D’man, we needed to get as many quality D’ as the Flamers.
Good luck with White and Rahimi…Rahimi may make it, but us Canuck fans aren’t kidding about White.
It may take 20-3 years, but he could be that overrated third line centre you have been looking for!
vancitydan
Ahem
That would be in addtion to our overrated 3rd line winger?
"..." - unknown
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
by SetoThorMarChooSki on Aug 30, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought Cheechoo was on the trade block as well. Maybe he still is?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 30, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
With Ehrhoff being traded, I somehow doubt it. The idea behind trading Cheechoo was to dump salary, and with Ehrhoff and Luko going to you guys, that’s already been done. The Sharks have a bunch of cheap defensemen/bottom-6 prospects in the system, and so now they can fill out a 23 man roster while staying under the cap.
Of course, nobody knows what Doug Wilson is thinking these days, so who knows.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
But what about the Heatley rumors? I guess if you got him you’d have to give up Marleau and his salary I suppose. Maybe marleau and Cheechoo’s salaries? There’s a chunk of change.
What do you think of Marleau and Wilson’s dumping of the captaincy?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 30, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Most of us over at FTF are staunchly anti-Heatley, as his salary will handicap the Sharks next year what with Pavelski and Setoguchi needing raises and Marleau and Nabokov becoming UFAs. Granted, the Ehrhoff trade has freed up some salary, but trading for Heatley will still drastically change a roster that has won the President’s Trophy. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
And I’m a pretty big fan of Marleau – a great team-first two-way player with amazing speed who will likely take a hometown discount next year. Trading him away would be stupid, IMO, because he fills a role on the Sharks that can’t easily be replaced. I didn’t like his C being taken away, but the fact that it’s being earned in training camp does make me feel better about it.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
Thanks for that info. Yeah, I approved of the “earning” the captaincy as well. Something had to be done after another playoff failure.
When you say Marleau would likely take a hometown discount to stay in San Jose that surprises me. Is he really that type of guy?
With the Sharks still being considered contenders, why wouldn’t you want the further shakeup of bringing in Heatley and flogging someone like Cheechoo? Isn’t there anyone else you can get rid of to absorb Heatley’s contract for more than 1 season?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 30, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Marleau was drafted by the Sharks second overall back in 1997, married a San Jose girl, has a young son, and has really established himself in the community. He told both Wilson and the press that he’s willing to do what it takes to get San Jose over the hump, like willingly giving up the C this summer. He’s the guy that was put on the third line with Cheechoo and Grier because of injuries, and proceeded to score twice in one game. With San Jose’s cap situation being what it is, he’ll have to take a discount to stay with the team, and I just don’t see him walking.
And as for the shake-up, history has shown that minor tweaks help contenders get over the hump more than complete shake-ups. As it stands, the only impact player the Sharks have lost this off-season was Ehrhoff, and every other player was on the third/fourth line or a bottom-pairing defenseman. The core is still in place, which had six 20+ goal-scorers and a great defense.
Just to get Heatley, the Sharks will likely have to give up Michalek (4.3M), Cheechoo (3M), and a high pick (likely first rounder). Heatley costs $7.5M, and Cheech and Milan cost $7.3M together. That puts the Sharks $200K closer to the cap with one more position to be filled. As it stands, the Sharks only have 17 players signed and around $4M to sign 6 players (not including the bonus cushion). Trading for Heatley would mean that the Sharks would have to fill one more position with less money. Then the Sharks would have to trade away another core player, Murray ($2.5M) perhaps, which would mean that they would need to fulfill yet another position.
Basically, it’s all very complicated, and will hurt the Sharks’ depth.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
Wow. I see your points there, except for the minor tweaking part. They’ve already tried that haven’t they? Well, I guess adding Boyle and Blake aren’t small tweaks now are they?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 30, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Marleau sounds like a cool cat. Sounds like a Gillis-type. Always wanted him here.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 30, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, the main beef Sharks fans have with him is that he’s been the captain during the whole playoff failure era (nevermind that he’s one of the best playoff performers this past decade). Other than the year he had that falling-out with Ron Wilson, he’s been great.
And they’ve been relatively small tweaks – Boyle and Blake seem major, but Blake is a year-by-year case, and Boyle was a guy that Doug Wilson wanted for several years. The core has pretty much stayed intact, with some of the grinders cycling in and out (and when they leave, they usually end up in the AHL or on a two-way contract).
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
Always liked that name.
Cheechoo. Gotta get him an Oshie on the same line. The play by play guy would have so much fun.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 30, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
The kvetching about him from Sharks fans is funny. He makes no more mistakes than any other D’man…its the nature of the game…mistakes will happen under pressure. Its how your teammates back you up when you make one.
I dunno man, I’m really trying to shoot you straight. You’ll see in a months time so it doesn’t matter all too much, but how do you explain him being a -12 with the next starting six blueliner a +5 (Lukowich). What about his GAON/60 being the worst on the team (ignore Joslin, he was an injury replacement). Facing the easiest quality of competition on the blueline? Second lowest amount of PK time on the blueline behind Luko etc.
Looks like you’ve been watching too much TV and not doing enough research. Just sayin’.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
What’s a computer?
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Aug 30, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Because a player doesn’t do well in your system, doesn’t mean he will do bad in ours.
Gillis wouldn’t have went for him if he wasn’t what he wanted.
Our GM is pretty pragmatic that way.
And really, I was just saying that I have noticed A LOT of SJ fans trying to talk him down, and just as many bemoaning his loss.
I know from the 6-8 games I saw last season, he wasn’t as bad as you are trying to make him out Mr Plank.
And the stats you are trying to use to buttress your argument are suspect to say the least. I mean…GAON/60? Quality of competition?
Please, next thing you’ll be telling me his Corsi number is bad.
Know who the worst Corsi number player in the NHL is?
Ryan Johnson of the Canucks.
Yet he is a heart and soul guy of our team that we would fight to keep.Someone that played the entire season with a badly broken finger and still was a great faceoff guy. Fantastic penalty killer. Total team guy.
Thats the other thing…our team has about the strongest team chemistry in the NHL, or close to it. Because Gillis doesn’t hire malcontents. (which is why Heater won’t be here, no matter how good he would potentially look with the Twins)
I am not worried about him being a -12 at all.
Our D’ is deeper than yours…he’ll have a better overall team defense working with him. Guys that backcheck all the time, not when they feel like it.
I judge the game by what I see, not like some baseball fan poring over stats. Research your stats all you want. I’ll take what my eyes tell me, from watching and playing the game. Which I have been doing since I was 6.
From what I saw , he is a fast skater, has a big if sometimes inaccurate shot. Someone that is good at getting his stick inlanes on the PK…someone that reads the game well.
But thats just me… ;-)
The only stat we car about is 4 wins in the SCF.
Keep your stick on the ice…
Peace
vancitydan
He’s definitely what I would describe as “soft”, but more than worth his price as long as he is played with a physical stay at home defenseman- probably not a problem considering Vancouver has a lot of depth in that type of player. He was paired with Douglas Murray last season, so maybe Mitchell or Bieksa? Depends on Gillis’ impending trade of course, but those are the two that stand out at first glance.
Emphasis mine.
I wasn’t saying he was a bad pick up or this was a bad deal for Vancouver, conceding as much at the end when I said, “Obviously Gillis took Wilson to the cleaners here, and I’m sure you’re very happy with the deal.” I’m not sure what your big hang up is, or why you decided to dedicate a paragraph to a player (Johnson) who doesn’t resemble Ehrhoff at all after ranting about Corsi numbers (a statistic I did not include, nor do I believe in). My opinion is that Ehrhoff is a below average defenseman, the stats that I provided are worthwhile, and that watching six games last season is not akin to watching a player for five years.
The only stat we car about is 4 wins in the SCF.
As well you should. Forty years is a long time to wait.
I’ll check back in here in December and see if Ehrhoff has turned the corner. There’s this little thing called television I’ll be watching. And I’m sure you’ll be doing the same.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Why…because anyone that is going to post the most esoteric stats to support an obviously ill intentioned argument doesn’t know hockey.
Thats why.
And lose the sarcasm…
It doesn’t befit you…and it isn’t funny.
BTW…how many Cups have the Sharks won? Have they been to the Final? At least the Canucks have been.
Twice.
You should just shut up…you are obviously dealing someone that knows the game better than you? Have you ever played? I did…13 years. Ever coach?I did, several times, helping out in minor and house league teams. Ever even skate?
I know the game pretty well.
The point of talking about RJ was that stats are useless in judging a player.
What they do for the team is.
Lets just say that I will take the opinion of real hockey fans over a whiny bitch that calls the guy below average to buttress a losing argument. He was in your top 4, but now that he is gone he is below average?
Please…
Post goals and assists…those are real stats. Ice time… stats that actually mean something.
Not the kind some frustrated baseball fan professes. Stats are for losers…
Come on back in December …bring more than the weak passive agressive dreck in your last post
vancitydan
LOL
I’ll let Plank counter argue but…
I know from the 6-8 games I saw last season, he wasn’t as bad as you are trying to make him out Mr Plank.
SMALL SAMPLE SIZE.
I said...from what I have seen...
To tell you the truth…you guys are boring me now. Come on up to Canada, maybe we can see a game together…have a beer and discuss…
And like I told your little buddy Plank…stats are for losers.
The only stats that mean anything are the obvious ones. Goals, assists, PIM,points, time on ice.
+/- should only be used as a team stat…as it is on all 5 guys on the ice
GAON/60? Quality of Competition? CORSI?
Loser stats for people that want to denigrate the game into numbers…you can’t do that with hockey like you can with hockey.
vancitydan
Holy crap batman!
Whats up with you and CORSI? Were you traumatized by it as a kid or something? No ones even bringing it up.
You keep claiming “stats are for losers.” What’s your basis on this? When Plank shows the stats on Ehrhoff proving his below averageness your only counter argument is “stats are for losers.” I don’t know if it’s just me but I think thats a craptastical argument.
The corsi thing is a long story….
Nothing to do with you guys.
As long as the context isn’t lost I like stats, even some of the freaky ones. I think vancitydan is on to something GENERALLY with overuse of stats.
how many Cups have the Sharks won? Have they been to the Final? At least the Canucks have been.Oh man, vancitydan, below the belt. Deduct a point. (Wait, that’s a stat……sorry)
I’m kidding! You gotta quit this argument though. Stats DO matter. These guys have watched and analyzed the shit out of Ehrhoff. I’m inclined to trust their opinions, stats and visual.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 1, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Just because I currently live in California doesn’t mean I don’t know the game. Every once in awhile I put down my cowabunga surfboard after riding some gnarly waves and check out what’s shaking on that frozen ice stuff where people skate around with sticks and try to score the most baskets in four quarters. Totally rockin’ bro. The shootout was the best rule change ever invented and I definitely think they should ban fighting as soon as possible. That would be rad.
Have played. Still do in fact. Born in Minnesota and grew up around it. Never was very good, but you’d probably define me as a heart and soul fourth line plugger. Just think of me as Ryan Johnson and you should be set.
When you call James Mirtle “an idiot” your opinion really doesn’t matter much to me anymore. I don’t think there’s really anything much more to say than that.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Plank…great…you played the game…my apologies.
But to use James Mirtle as a back up just shows another frustrated mathmetician.
Look, his column in the Globe and Mail gets ripped by real hockey fans.
Most of us laugh at him over beers.
If you have played the game, you should know that stats do not tell the whole story.
I was once the 7th d man on a Junior B team.
My plau minus was horrible.
Yet my teammates voted me as their favorite player…why was that?
Because I always backed them up.
Look, you are entitled to your opinion. You are entiltled to believe whatever you want about Ehrhoff…as am I.
But my opinion on hockey is just as important as yours.
And I am just calling all you guys whiming about Ehrhoff. Because it sounds like sour grapes because you lost him.
Canuck fans never did that when Olie left. I will probably cheer for him when Tampa plays us.
Its decidedly low class to be a prick about a guy because he isn’t on your team any more.
And really…this is all out of hand. You could have avoided it by not acting like a supposedly superior when responding to someone that disagrees with you.
It sounds like you were the same kind of player as I was…which probably explains a lot. Both being obstinate.
Tell you what…heres my “cyber” hand…its the end of a playoff game. I mean you no personal animus at all.
I just refuse to listen to this crap about a good player because you guys are feeling separation anxiety.
Keep your stick on the ice.
vancitydan
Dude, you’re not getting it at all. We will miss Ehrhoff, to be sure. But separation anxiety is far from the point.
Ehrhoff was easily the most criticized Shark on the ice ALL YEAR. We’re not just saying crap about him now that he’s gone. If you would just back up what your say with a little more than “I played hockey” and “I watch games”, we’d be more inclined to believe you. Also, you come off as a total dick, which doesn’t help.
I agree that your opinion is just as valid, but there was no need for the personal attacks or the rips on anyone. Enjoy Ehrhoff. Make sure to come rub it in when he wins the Norris in a Canucks uniform.
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Sep 1, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Tell you what…heres my "cyber" hand…its the end of a playoff game. I mean you no personal animus at all.
Done. We’re both guys who think they are right all the time if you know what I mean (will fight for their opinion till the end), and I agree it got out of hand. Water under the bridge sir.
I’m very interested how Ehrhoff does next year, and will be watching him closely. The consensus around here is that Vancouver does a good job with player development and that Vigneault runs a tight ship, which can only mean good things going forward.
Best of luck next season.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
yeah...
Sometimes the emotions get the better of us. I might be accused of that.
Then their is that Canadian arrogance that no one in the US can understand the game. I think it comes from us continually seeing the media in the US totally overblow the coverage on negative things, and bash the game we love.
Gives us thin skins!
I forget that there are places in the USA where hockey is number one. That the American fans I have met can be almost as nuts as we Canucks (country not team…) almost because we truly are sick. Evidence of is 16,000 plus in Calgary for a scrimmage. Sure, the best players in the world scrimmaging, but Geez.
Yes, I think the coaching staff here will help. I like yours though. I think he was having the 1st year jitters, and now that he is making the team his own, you will see more accountability.
Accountability comes here just because there is multiple media in every Canadian city doing their best to stick their nose in.
BTW…what the FUCK with Versus? Why can the NHL not do the same as the NFL and get the NHL Network on basic donwn there. Centre Ice for the hardcores.
Problem solved.
Peace.
vancitydan
No doubt about it, those Ehrhoff stats are disturbing. Yikes.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 1, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't worry.
Stats are for losers.
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Sep 1, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Take away the +/-, which I believe to be more a 5 guy stat (though I will concede it is more decisive in judging D’men) and you have 8 goals, 34 assists. 5 points on the PP, and 65 PIM. ( And if you have a true offensive D’man, just by the nature of the game, they are going to get caught taking chances sometimes…)
Puts him at Edlers offensive numbers.
Not saying I think he is the 2nd coming of Scotty Neidermayer ( the old D’man I was hoping wanting to finish his career at home), but he has talent.
The coaches down there did have him on the ice more than any other D’man in the playoffs. Then again, the team went out in the first round.
Wait a minute…walks out of the room muttering to himself
BTW…“stats are for losers” is not wholly untrue. There are lots of players most teams would love to have that aren’t stats demons…say…..Scotty Neids’ (-8). Can’t think of any team that wouldn’t want him!
vancitydan
Take away the +/-, which I believe to be more a 5 guy stat (though I will concede it is more decisive in judging D’men)
Nah, it really mostly is a 5 guy stat. Dickhead forward doesn’t come back defensively and it’s a 3 on 2…goal. Why blame the defence for that entirely? It’s too damned skewed, just like many basic goalie stats in relation to quality chances faced.
You’d need a full time stat guy or 2 at every game to legitly determine these things.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 1, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Take that attitude over to FTR, and see how long they take to tear you a new one.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
I don’t know Smo’, sometimes James unearths a nugget.
His G&M math whiz breakdowns are just what we need to make our eyes get heavy…better than warm milk!
He seems to have a hard on for giving shots to the Canucks that kinda pisses me off though.
Must be a Leafs fan…
LOL
vancitydan
I don’t care what anyone thinks. Those stats are and can be skewed and I stand by my opinion.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 2, 2009 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions
um
He makes no more mistakes than any other D’man
The average D-man mishandles the puck… in his own crease?
You will understand in a couple months
I find it doubtful that you watched every Sharks game this year or even last. I doubt you watched half of the Sharks games last season. Ehrhoff has good and bad games and is pretty inconsistent. Towards the end I was hopeful I just didn’t notice him on the ice and he fed a nice pass on the PP.
Ehrhoff cannot play a two on one. He just can’t. He made some improvements in his game this year, but those +/- numbers are earned not just a matter of circumstance. He’s going to give you some offense; he might even be a below average defensive player for you, but he makes some egregious mistakes at the WORST possible times.
I wish Ehrhoff and the Canucks organization the best. I have a friend who is a HUGE Ehrhoff fan and was sad to see him go. I am on the other side of the fence.
this doesn't sound like the writing of someone that wanted to let him go at the deadline...
The Skinny: I’m not advocating a trade for Ehrhoff, and the return on him would probably come in the form of a defenseman. The Sharks can’t really afford to roll out Alexei Semenov as the sixth D come playoff time (no matter how well he has played this year). It would also leave Derek Joslin as our seventh man. Not enough experience on the backend to make a deep run if we trade Christian for a forward.
He was great when he was on your team…and sucks now that he on another…
At least you have that in common with Canadian hockey fans…
BTW…if you act a little less like a Dick, you won’t get anger back.
Looked pretty good flying down the wing is this highlight…you can find the rest at Canucks.com
vancitydan
Oh please. I advocated that he and Lukowich should be the ones dealt all the way back on July 12th. The piece you quoted sounds like it was written before the deadline, which is obviously a different situation considering San Jose didn’t have to shed salary then. This is probably the fundamental difference we have (and I’m not being sarcastic here)- you rely on one measure (your eyes) to judge things, while I like to reinforce that observation by using statistics. I’m not saying it’s wrong but it’s definitely a difference of opinion that we share, among other things I would assume.
BTW…if you act a little less like a Dick, you won’t get anger back.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but nothing in my initial post seemed to come off like dickish. Your initial comments, however, could be construed that way:
SJ fans, they have this new thing called TV now. It means we can see Ehrhoff play too.
It may take 20-3 years, but he could be that overrated third line centre you have been looking for!
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
you rely on one measure (your eyes) to judge things, while I like to reinforce that observation by using statistics.
i.e. putting things into context.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
FYI
Shark fans were down on Ehrhoff before the trade… This piece was written on January 5th.
The one D-man I’m not totally satisfied with this year is Ehrhoff, although statistically he is having a good year. As TCY has pointed out many times, he does think he is a forward too many times, and unlike Boyle can’t get away with it. This post is about scoring, but let me just say his puck management is terrible and he constantly makes mistakes that drive me crazy, sorry had to get that off my chest. Offensively he does have 17 points compared to a 22 point previous season, but I still think he shoots the puck too much, although I’m sure the coaching staff would disagree.
Couple things...
I’m really not getting the hate on Mr. Plank, California fans, James Mirtle, Fear the Fin, advanced hockey metrics, etc.
Vancitydan, Plank came in here and gave you an honest assessment of what San Jose fans thought of Ehrhoff. That’s it. As Sharks fans and bloggers for one of Nucks’ Misconduct’s sister sites, Fear The Fin, we’ve seen plenty of Ehrhoff over the last few years. Not 6-8 games. Five seasons.
Ehrhoff is a good player, but he definitely has his flaws. What’s funny, though, is I really don’t get your hate on Plank’s post…
Some nights he’s going to look great, the next night he might be better off in the press box (hence the nickname “Error-hoff”). His contract and skill set are definitely worth it though, especially since Vancouver needed some offense from the backend. Very good pickup, and worth 3x what you gave up to get him.
That’s his conclusion on Ehrhoff, and it seemed pretty nice, and even complimentary of your GM. You came in and took your shots… because… well… that’s what people do when they are in front of a computer.
We wish you all the best with Ehrhoff. Enjoy. Stop being a dick.
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
Look Cheech.."don’t come in here? Its ona Canucks thread…so lose that.
Look above…and you will see that Plank was just as culpable in the Dick department…his little pithy comments were couched in nicer language is all.
You guys are getting pretty sensitive on the subject.
I believe from what I have seen of the player, he is better than you guys are making him out to be.
Its normal to be that way when a player leaves this way. You feel anger at your team for doing the stupid trade, than devalue the player to make yourself feel better.
It is normal to rationalize it away.
But as for taking shots and being a dick, while I am willing to admit to losing patience with you guys being so obtuse about it,thats it.
There has been enough of it to go around.
And yes Plank, I do trust my eyes over stats.
Corsi especially. Because its some crap thought up by a frustrated math geek that COULDN’T play the game like you and me. Same as those other stupid stats.
Like I said above…goals,assists,ice time…the big ones…this baseball thinking of hockey is just stupid.
So, for the record, if I hurt anyone’s feelings, my apologies…but I won’t change my opinion because you might not like it.
vancitydan
I don’t know where you are quoting me “don’t come in here”, because I didn’t say that.
I’m off, don’t want to discuss this anymore. Agree that Ehrhoff is a “good player”, wouldn’t go farther than that, though. Seriously, I hope you are right in the fact that he’s gonna be good for you. I would like to see him continue to succeed. He’s a machine on offense, but terrible defensively.
You’ll see that with your eyes once you watch the Canucks games this year. Enjoy.
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Sep 1, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Its normal to be that way when a player leaves this way. You feel anger at your team for doing the stupid trade, than devalue the player to make yourself feel better.
Some are doing that…some are giving an honest opinion. We’ll find out soon enough how blunderous Ehrhoff is or isn’t.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 1, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and by the way...
Corsi was created by former NHL goaltender and current Buffalo Sabres goaltending coach Jim Corsi.
I’d assume he was better at playing the game than you or Plank. Although I’ve heard Plank throws some pretty mean hip checks.
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Sep 1, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Look Cheech…I am feeling like I am one against the world, so I got a bit touchy. You are right, you didn’t say that.
But it really sounds like Ehrhoff was some Fin fan’s favorite whipping boy. I get that, as a fan.
But when you guys are all just calling him some shitty player…I tend to challenge that.
8 games last year is enough for me to see he is a good player….
It reminds me of just about any goalie in Vancouver until Bobby Lou…
Cloutier was a perfect example. We loved him sometimes, but after letting in that centre ice goal against Lidstrom and Detroit…try asking a Canucks fan about Clouts without them spitting on the floor and looking away in disgust.
Anyhow…good luck this season too. Escpet when you play the Canucks…because their won’t be any of that katy bar the door hockey they played in SJ last year.
Partly because of this new D’man we got. He is supposed to be pretty good…
You may have heard of him, skates like the wind, has a hammer for a shot, stands up for his teammates…though I hear from his former team’s fans that he can make the occasional mistake.
No worries…
Corsi probably was…let me ask you this…do you even understand it? What is its use?
Overdoing it on stats is fine for some fans…but most I know laugh at it.
Any stat that calls RJ the worst player in the league in its stat is suspect. Because anyone that watched the team last year knows how important RJ was to our team’s success.
vancitydan
Got ya man. And I think you took our criticism of “the Iceman” (Ehrhoff) too seriously. He’s a good player, fantastic skater, but there are issues. Not saying he blows, ‘cause he doesn’t. Not saying I’d rather have him off the team than on, ‘cause I don’t. Just giving you an honest assesment. If he wasn’t so good offensively, he’d be a bottom pairing guy at best.
I like Corsi, but like you, I also played the game. I know that there’s way more to it than numbers. But as someone who actually works as an economist in the real world, I like that I can ocassionally use stats and advanced metrics to back up a point. However, I almost never use them as the sole determining factor of a players worth. They are helpful though, and the hockey community as a whole have begun to accept them as part of the puzzle.
Good luck this year, but the same. They will be tough games between VAN and SJ, but don’t count on Ehrhoff helping you on the defensive end. Won’t matter, though, if he puts up some points on the PP.
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Sep 1, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
but don’t count on Ehrhoff helping you on the defensive end. Won’t matter, though, if he puts up some points on the PP.
No, that won’t fly with Alain Vigneault
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 1, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m really looking forward to seeing how Vigneault will adress Ehrhoff’s defensive lapses. Should be interesting to say the least!
Fear the Fin: Where... IMA TAKING UR BLOGZ FRUM U!!
by Matthew_Taylor on Sep 1, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Economist? So, whats going on down there? I thought economists were being chased through the streets with pitchforks and torches still…or has that stopped?
Yes, its nice when the stats can help, but its stats that get us these horrible leaders like Bush down there and Harper up here.
Because some stats wiz can make a poll sing for his guy, while murdering his opponent. Lets just say I have a distrust of them, as you can see.
I don’t know that the Canucks are really going to depend on Ehrhoff for the defensive game. He won’t be on our shutdown pair.
He will probably be paired with a defensive minded guy, and encouraged to rush the puck.
If he gets the same amount of points as he did with you guys…I’ll be happy.
BTW…I was just reading he led your team in playoff ice time…maybe that is where the blame comes from. I thought the 1st round exit was because of the forwards like Jumbo Joe, but maybe you guys have something!
Keep your head on a swivel…
vancitydan
Sounds like this entire argument boils down to “potential.”
MG & AV see Ehrhoff having a greater potential in Vancouver than he did in SJ. Maybe they see him as the perfect complement to an existing D-man, or maybe they think they can coach him out of his bad habits while retaining the good.
I suspect it’s the latter, that they think they can improve him. Player development has quietly been emerging as Canuck strength lately.
We’ll see, tho if they are viewing him as a project, it’ll be a while before the results are clear.
Or maybe he gets traded before ever donning a Canucks jersey….you never know. Unlikely though.
by Sean Zandberg on Sep 1, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
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