Oh You Did NOT Just Insult Cody Did You?
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 19, 2009 1:46 PM PDT
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The TEAM1040 had Gary Lawless, a writer for Winnipeg Free Press who follows the Moose, on with Blake Price this afternoon and delivered a shot across the bow of The HMS Hodgson-Calder-Winner:
This is a shame what's going to happen with Cody Hodgson this year, because we got to watch him. He's not good enough to make Vancouver. I know there's lots of guys in your local media who are slobbering over him, but he's got big holes in his game right now. He's clearly going to be a good player down the line, but just like Mason Raymond wasn't ready, Cody Hodgson isn't ready either. He's going to come to camp and they're not going to keep him, and they'll have to send him back to junior, which is a complete waste.
When he was done taking candy from a nearby toddler, G. Lawless would go on to add:
Defensively, he's very deficient - he doesn't have a clue to be honest with you. He hasn't had to play that part of the game in junior hockey because he's so good, he's so much better than everybody else. He gets the puck and he keeps it for 90 seconds. He hasn't played in his own end and in the NHL, he'll cost you more than he gets you right away. Maybe he'll stick around for a little while, but when they have to make the decision (after nine games), he's going back to Brampton.
You can listen to the new Team1040 show "Lawless Tramples Canucks' Fans Hopes And Dreams" right here.
Or you can make of it what you will: a beat writer who saw CoHo play 11 playoff games a few months ago or Gagner who has been working with the kid since he was drafted and says he's ready. Choose a side and defend it to the grave.
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Lawless is right to a point. Hodgson-mania is running wild and it could be blown out of proportion. I saw the games CoHo played with the Moose in the playoffs, He wasn’t exactly stellar. However, he was new to the team. What the hell did anyone expect?
Personally, I’m not going to get too hyped. I hope the media doesn’t put too much pressure on the kid. In a sense I like Lawless’ comments because it’s the anti-thesis of all this CoHo craziness out there. However, saying he won’t make the Canucks is a BOLD staement.
I was actually going to include a shout out to you based on what you have said about Hodgson not being a lock, but I don’t recall hearing you question his defensive skills so I didn’t want to put words in your mouth
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 19, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I can’t say I watched his defensive play in the AHL playoffs, so I can’t comment on that.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Player Development
So Lawless’ logic is that:
1. Hodgson’s not learning to play defense in Brampton; therefore
2. The Canucks should send him back to Brampton?
I suspect the big team knows more about player development than Mr. Lawless does.
Don’t forget though…if Gillis doesn’t trade anyone, the lines look like this:
Burrows-Sedin-Sedin
Samuelsson-Kesler-Demitra
Bernier-Wellwood-Raymond
Hordichuk-Johnson-Rypien
Yeah…an injury or trade has to happen before Hodgson gets a spot.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I vote the Thornton Route!
That’s where a young talent is with the big club, being coached by NHLers, and living with the team for a full schedule while only playing as much as he can handle. Joe Thornton’s first year with Boston, he only averaged about six-to-eight minutes of ice time; in his second year, he had around fifteen.
He didn’t end up too bad, I seem to recall…
True
But tough to apply to Hodgson: he’s not going to be the Chosen One to lead us to the Cup, he’s going to be part of the team, and hopefully he knows that.
No way man! I put Jesus and Hodgson on the same level! :)
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 20, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
That was my thought, too. Surely he’s got more potential upswing than a Hordichuk. I’d be very surprised if the Canucks don’t in the very least give him his maximum number of games in the NHL with him learning from some solid two-way players before sending him back down, if he hasn’t learned anything at that point.
If he could play in the AHL, this would likely play out differently. But as it is, it’s a choice between no growth and minimal playing time. The only part of me that kind of hopes for the first is the part that knows he’ll be slaughtered by the media if he fails to live up to these wild expectations.
...loving life for Christ's glory...
No. I'm pretty sure that's not his logic at all.
His logic is Hodgson cannot play NHL defense and will cost the team goals. Therefore, they must send him somewhere and force him to work on his defense, in whatever way possible. You know though, I’m not sure why the Nucks would send him to Brampton and not Manitoba, but maybe there’s something I’m missing there.
Trades can wait ... a little
The Canucks are getting top-heavy with young 3rd and 4th liners so a trade is inevitable. But if I were Gillis – and clearly I’m not – I’d not be in a rush to trade just yet. I’d first give all the players a chance to show what they can do for as long as possible, showcase the trade bait if necessary (e.g. by playing them w/the Sedins) and only then package a deal.
As it stands today, no one really knows what Hodgson, Grabner, Shirokov etc can do. Even younger vets like Raymond and Bernier and Hansen have some q marks as to how much they’ll improve this year upon last.
So why rush to decide? Play ‘em thru the preseason, maybe even the first part of the regular season, and then decide. At least then you’ll have had a chance to line juggle and to see the players firsthand and you’ll be able to make a more informed decision. And your trade partners will have had a look, too.
FAs are another story: get what you need when you can get it cuz it might be gone tomorrow. But trading a few of the surfeit of forwards the Canucks now seem to have, perhaps in a “several good players for one better player” deal, that sort of thing doesn’t need to be done j-u-s-t yet, provided the players themselves understand the situation and trust Gillis to treat them right in the end.
As for Hodgson himself, unless a trade comes along that’s just too sweet to pass up, I’m inclined to try to keep him on the big club because of his potential, giving him decent minutes, and suffering thru his learning curve till I’m either satisfied he’s made the transition or convinced that he won’t by the end of the year.
Great insight. I think Raymond is a lock though, unless he gets traded.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Last year I remember an early season interview with Raymond. I watched it – can’t even remember what was said – and thought, “this kid is flying too high; that’s gonna hurt him.” The rest you know.
Later in the year, around the time he finally scored a goal after his big drought, I saw another interview w/him and thought, “ah, much better; he’s learned.” Good thing for him, too; with all the competition in camp this year, he’ll need to stay grounded just as much as he’ll need his speed if he’s gonna stick. Overall, I look for him to make it and to have a good year (and if he gets traded, he’ll just have his good year somewhere else).
Shirokov’s the sleeper this year, IMHO, provided he adjusts to the N.A. game and size of rink. He’s older and has played pro hockey (KHL variety) for a coupla years already, and – just as important – his motivation has to be way up there: he left the KHL on bitter terms and if he fails to make the Canucks, well, do you think he wants to be the guy who comes crawling back, the example pointed out to all other young players there of what not to do, with no chance of ever getting out again nor the bargaining leverage to improve his lot? Kid’s in a corner.
So I see him either making the Canucks or requesting a trade pretty darn quick, but if the Canucks want value in return they’ll have to showcase him first.
Good stuff casual. Thanks for joining the site BTW. Stick around, it’s only going to get crazier in the next few weeks.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 19, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought I read somewhere that Shirokov would be fine playing with the Moose if he didn’t make it. He did sign a 2-way contract didn’t he?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
2-way? I hadn’t heard that, but since he bolted the KHL over money I doubt he wants to make AHL dollars for long, plus the humiliation of not making it in the NHL and having to go home as a washout. A brief stop in the AHL to get used to the smaller rink would be ok, I guess, but no more than that and only for adjustment purposes. At least, that’s how I’d be thinking if I were in his place. Anything else makes no sense and he wouldn’t have left Russia to begin with.
IIRC, he took a small pay cut to come here, too, on a 2 year deal, so he must be thinking longer-term than that if he hopes to make all this trouble financially worthwhile for him. I still see the guy as having nowhere left to hide. The next few weeks could easily determine his career, and presuming he’s figured that out, his motivation should reflect the reality; this is his make-or-break moment. If he fails, he may not get another and would likely end up branded as a small-sized minor leaguer, stuck there.
If I’m looking for a sleeper pick from this year’s training camp, he’d be it: older than the other rookies, more experienced, led his KHL team in scoring, and should be very motivated. No guarantees, but lotsa neat subplots at the moment.
Be interesting to see what happens.
Aha, Lawrence Gilman told the Vancouver Sun a little while ago:
"At the end of the day, this kid said: ‘I want to play in the National Hockey League and I’m prepared to do whatever I have to,’" Canuck assistant general manager Laurence Gilman said. "He’s on an entry-level, two-way contract. He understands he has to compete for a spot and if he’s unable to make our team, he’ll play for our minor-league team.
"The bottom line is this kid stood up to [to CSKA] and said: ‘I’m going.’ "LINK But I agree, he could be the sleeper indeed!
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Bottom line, lots of intriguing possibilities going into camp.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
Yup. The speculation is fun though isn’t it? God we are all hockey die-hards
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Shirokov
Could well be the second line player we don’t know we have. With luck, he doesn’t come over until camp, and thus has a good excuse not to do interviews (no need to overload the poor lad with this town’s Hockey Madness)! That aside, he could be anywhere from the second line down to the Moose.
David Pratt was annointing Hodgson ‘the next captain of the club’ last week on the Team 1040.
Expectations are way out of wack.
He should be a very good hockey player, but fans have a distorted standard for him to meet. The lack of a legitimate offensive prospect recently doesn’t help either.
Junior is WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY different than the big times.
Check this list if you don’t agree… a random smattering of superstars and nobodies have been named CHL Player of the year over the history of the award.
"It's a great day for hockey" - BBJ
by jealous broadcaster on Aug 19, 2009 3:48 PM PDT reply actions
He’ll probably make the team out of camp, get limited minutes for the first nine games, then get sent back to junior( barring a trade) to work on whatever aspect of his game that has been found lacking. It won’t be the end of the world, better Hodgson’s meh now, dynamite later. And can we lose this CoHo crap?
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
I don’t know, man. “CoHo” is going to be hard to stop. Wanna call him Hodgie? Hodge Podge?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
*pops collar*
Hey, man… Don’t you know he’s “The Code”?
twists hat askew
Every hockey player knows “The Code”.
frosts hair, gets an orange tan
The Code is what RULES HOCKEY, MAN!
orders Grey Goose vodka
AOOOOOOOO!
Speaking of nicknames
When reading the translations from Swedish to English regarding Sundin’s possible retirement, it appeared to me that he was being referred to quite often as “The Cape.” Does anyone know anything about this?
by Bobby Canuck on Aug 21, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure why though. Superhero reference?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 21, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that was my thought when I read the article.
by Bobby Canuck on Aug 21, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Blah bla bla blah. What a load, the media frenzy around Hodgson is ridiculous. The facts are that , barring a mental breakdown in training camp, Hodgson is here for the year. It would be pointless to have him in Junior for another year. He has done everything he can there, AND the Nucks have publicly stated that he is ready.
The “seen him good” crowd can go suck an egg, the kid is gonna be here, he’s gonna stuggle, he’s gonna learn, he’s gonna show flashes of brilliance, and he’s gonna turn out.
I’m done talkin about him, i’m expectin a learnin experience from him this year, so i’m not worried. The tools who expect 50 points and 20 goals are the one’s who are worrying.
The tools who expect 50 points and 20 goals are the one’s who are worrying.
Intriguing point.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I have dispatched assassins to deal with this Lawless fellow post-haste.
My hencemen are named ‘Pinky and the Brain’, the task should go by smoothly.
That, and Hodgson is welcome to put up crap in his first year if he can put up gold
down the road. Please recall Jumbo Joe and Lecavalier’s rookie years, they weren’t pretty.
Tough day, huh? haha. We don’t need a half-assed performance from anybody on our squad. We’re a contender, remember? Trying to keep Lou around? etc
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions
CoHo?
It isn’t bad, but maybe the poster that said get rid of it is right? If we can come up with something better.
The Canucks have a problem that we as Canuck fans didn’t have to deal with when we had guys like Burke and Nonis running the show…“We are close, and trading picks for the talents of Weinrich will get us closer to our goal of a Stanley Cup”.
Then who do we face in the 1st round last year? The same team getting better on our picks. Now, we are using those picks to help ourselves. The level of talent at prospects camp will be far more than in previous years. Guys like Shirokov. Rodin.Oberg.Walsky, Schroeder and more are waaay more talented than our prospects have been in years passed.
I didn’t even mention the Grabners and Hodgsons on the cusp of the big team. And quite honestly, I think that Shirokov has a great chance of making the team. As the poster above said, his talent is on a very close par with Radulov in the KHL, and Rads was a definite NHLer when he was in Nashville.
Gillis has got it right. I trust him to get the trade done, or sign the FA that will be that PP D’man everyone is talking about.
vancitydan
Gillis has got it right. I trust him to get the trade done, or sign the FA that will be that PP D’man everyone is talking about.
I trust him too. Shirokov compared to Radulov? I don’t think there is a comparison there.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Zanny…one of the posters above pointed out that for players under 24/25 in the KHL, only Rads had more points.
I love how some of our Russians come with intrigue and a good story…Bure, Mogilny ..The Prof and the BIG K’.
Shirokov is next in a long line…now that the Commies have learnt that to keep their players they have to employ other tactics than they could in the Soviet days.
Now, they just sign them to onerous contracts…paying out only when they have to…
Like some NHL owners…
vancitydan
The hype around Cody makes me think Canuck-land misses Trevor Linden too much and they are seeking a young savior to guide them once again. Cody may or may not be that person…but, remember, Trevor surprised us all when he stepped in as an 18 yr old…he was not antcipated to do that.
Absolutely the point.
The Province had a great piece up on Hodgson’s back injury and the expectations today.
I hate to bring this up, but the first thing that comes to my mind with Hodgson replacing Linden is “why is Luongo the captain again?” And should he be?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
You want to make him captain already? Patience, lad, good things come to those who wait.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
No no, not Hodgson. Kesler or Mitchell. I was just wondering in general. It just reminded me of how Lou is the captain and how much I disapprove of it.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 19, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Louie being captain is OK…they will need to replace the other A with the departure of Ohlund. My guess is its Burrows, not Hodgson.
Why not slap the A on a Sedin?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 19, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Not Burrows
Nothing agains the guy, but a shift-disturber is not a lettered man in my books. It has to be someone who can talk to the refs, remember… Two "A"s are fine.
I’m okay with Luongo being captain; but then, I thought McLean was the informal captain back when anyway… Never-say-die guy who’s a vocal leader on the ice, and stand up off of it. So long as the other players listen, I’m cool with it.
…can they have 4 A’s? Then put one on both Sedins…or just give it back and forth each month.
Or make it with Velcro and change it from time to time…they could do it between periods and really mess with some ref’s head…
vancitydan
I believe
there’s 4 A’s already… or were. Just rotate – 2 at home, 2 away.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 20, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Oooops!
"It's a great day for hockey" - BBJ
by jealous broadcaster on Aug 20, 2009 10:41 AM PDT reply actions
Damn you’re right. Lots of hits and misses in there.
Though Alex Burrows told me that Pierre-Marc Bouchard is an ass :)
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 20, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
The mighty Simon Gamanche!
"It's a great day for hockey" - BBJ
by jealous broadcaster on Aug 20, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
that Gimanche guy was going to be something special…
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 20, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm maybe this had something to do with Hodgson's "disappointing" performance with Manitoba?
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Hodgson+ready+make+says+Canucks+exec/1775742/story.html
If there is a concern about Hodgson’s development, it’s the fact he was exhausted after playing non-stop for nearly 10 months. He figures he appeared in more than 120 games, his final one on June 12 when Hershey beat Manitoba to win the AHL title.
Now Hodgson needs to discover a balance between rest and recovery and building himself back up for the rigours of an NHL campaign.
“I was pretty depleted when I finished up with Manitoba,” Hodgson admitted. "I was down by about five pounds and the first day I got home, I don’t know how long I slept. I think it was longer than 12 hours. I went to bed when it got dark and when I got up, it was pretty much dusk.
Funny thing is even as a 19 y/o rookie on a new team in this state, stuck in at the end of the playoffs Hodgson was still good for 6 points and +4 in 11 games, projected over the 22 most played that would have put him 4th on the team in points and 3rd in +/- and the ones ahead of him have years, experience and familiarity on their side, weird for such a supposed defensive liability.
Not to mention the fact that anyone who watched him at the WJC or paid any attention to what’s been said about him, knows this kid is a complete player whose raved about when it comes to being a complete player and bigtime defensive forward.
That being said, I don’t expect the kid to tear up the league next season or or ever necessarily, especially since barring injury it’ll be tough to crack the top two lines and pp units where the points will be scored. I don’t expect Hodgson to be the next superstar, but I think there’s a good chance he could be a Brind’Amour type with possibly more upside and that would be a great thing for this team.
I read somewhere that he was being compared to Dale Hawerchuk.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 21, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I just don’t see Hodgson on that level offensively, although he may be a more complete player.
Hawerchuk gets overlooked in his era because of Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier and Yzerman but he was a consensus first overall pick ahead of the likes of Ron Francis, Al Macinnis, etc, he was also a 2 time Mem Cup champion and CHL player of the year as a 17 y/o (big difference), lead his league in goals and points in his draft year. He was also a 100pt player as an 18 y/o NHL rookie, held the record for youngest to do so until Crosby broke it. He didn’t just barely make the team as Hodgson might’ve last year, he was the best player on his team as a rookie, this guy was a game-breaker, threat to score every time he was on the ice, and if he’d have had a supporting cast like Gretzky, might well have had some serious hardware in his trophy case aside from just the Calder.
Hodgson I think has a better chance of being a Selke candidate one day, and possible team captain than he does of being an all-star centre or vying for the Art Ross.
I agree with almost everything you said, but I don’t agree with you.
A Selke denotes defense as much as offense. And I am not saying that Hodgson won’t be a complete player.
But it looks to me he has been an offensive player at every level. Even tired and we now know hurting during his time in Winnipeg he got goals. Points. Was a plus player. (BTW…Lawless is a moron, a total and complete moron that thought he could get some attention, not realizing that not always is the old “there is no bad press” adage true.
Sometimes you just prove that you are the idiot everyone suspected you were.
Like that guy from the Examiner.com saying Captain Lou is the #4 goalie in the NW!! You can’t make some of this idiocy up.
As an 18 year old. Playing in three different levels of competition.
I totally agree that he could be a good complete player. I don’t compare him with Hawerchuk
(totally agree with you on him, used to love watching those Canuck/Jets games on the TV. Very talented)
I compare him with Ron Francis. Who also had questions about his speed and plaudits about his maturity and character at that age.
vancitydan
Oh absolutely he can score, and will score, I’m just not sure it will be at an elite level. Not sure about the Francis comparison either, Hogson is a better goalscorer I think, Francis more of a pure playmaker who used his significant size to his advantage, and still think that might be optimistic offensively, but I’m willing to be surprised. Regardless, for his ability to truly be known he will have to get offensive opportunities with other quality players with significant icetime and PP time and I’m not sure AV has the ability to get the most out of him that way.
Wow…you are just a ray of friggen sunshine, aren’t you?
Take a backhanded shot at Cody, I give you some reasons for a differing opinion, and now you are taking shots at the Coach?
God, be a fan, but try to be positive occasionally.
Lets just say I would trust AV and his opinion on a hockey player and how to use him then yourself.
You are denigrating the player, and the coach, before a puck has even dropped…that is just stupid!
And Francis did MOT play like he was 6’3", and just use his size to his advantage.
He was the most talented player of his generation not named Gretzky and Lemieux…and yes, he was better than Hawerchuck!
vancitydan
I can remember Francis scoring some beauty goals. He had a great shot as well. I think AV will go the Raymond route with Hodgson..but we’ll see.
Easy now, vancitydan, yoata did say he was “willing to be surprised.” He cautiously optimistic it seems. Fair enough.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 21, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you guys have me wrong, I am stoked about Hodgson, absolutely love him as a player, think he’s by far the best Nuck draft pick in a long time, thought he was awesome in the WJC, like I said look at my first post.
I just don’t agree with those who think he’s going to come in a and compete with the the elite scorers in this league in terms of offense. That doesn’t mean I think he can’t be an extremely valuable player who should score plenty but do so many other great things, it just means I’m not convinced he will be in that echelon offensively, but I hope I am wrong.
Francis scored some nice goals, and I like him a lot as a player too, but he was definetely more a setup guy first, that’s all I’m saying, just don’t really see the comparison.
For me it’s a broad comparison. I just see some similarities between the 2. I doubt he’ll be in the League top scoring as well. He’d have to go straight to the Sedin line and stay there all year.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 23, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
“He [Francis] was the most talented player of his generation not named Gretzky and Lemieux…”
Arguably true, tho IIRC his skating when he came in the league was a step slower than it would later become; he really improved it a lot as his career progressed. I remember seeing him, after having not seen him for some time, and thinking, “damn he’s quick, why didn’t I notice that before?”
Then again, maybe it was just me….
Not even close imo
Yzerman, Messier, Hawerchuk, Savard, Lafontaine, Oates, Hull, Coffey, Neely, all well ahead of Francis in terms of talent just off the top of my head.
Where did I denigrate Hodgson???
You should maybe reread my first post man.
Francis was not in the same echelon as Messier, Yzerman, or even Hawerchuk, and I wasn’t trying to say he was just big, I was trying to say he was a different style of player than Hodgson, had that reach and was more of a playmaker.
Clam down. If you haven’t seen AV do nothing but guess and guess again and guess again when it comes to line combinations, as well as stick his young guys on the back burner, then you haven’t been watching and that’s why you don’t understand what I meant about getting the most out of players. AV is a very good defensive coach, but I honestly don’t think he has a clue when it comes to generating O.
And watch who you call stupid since you obviously have trouble with concepts beyond the painfully simple.
there are opinions, and there are facts....
1 Wayne Gretzky C 1979-1980 1998-1999 1,487 894 1,963 2,857 518 577 204 73 91 12 5,089
2 Mark Messier C 1979-1980 2003-2004 1,756 694 1,193 1,887 210 1,910 179 63 92 15 4,219
3 Gordie Howe R 1946-1947 1979-1980 1,767 801 1,049 1,850 1,685
4 Ron Francis C 1981-1982 2003-2004 1,731 549 1,249 1,798 -10 979 188 12 79 13 3,754
5 Marcel Dionne C 1971-1972 1988-1989 1,348 731 1,040 1,771 28 600 234 19 74 1 5,366
6 Steve Yzerman C 1983-1984 2005-2006 1,514 692 1,063 1,755 202 924 202 50 94 12 4,602
7 Mario Lemieux C 1984-1985 2005-2006 915 690 1,033 1,723 115 834 236 49 74 7 3,633
8 Joe Sakic C 1988-1989 2008-2009 1,378 625 1,016 1,641 30 614 205 32 86 13 7 4,621
9 Jaromir Jagr R 1990-1991 2007-2008 1,273 646 953 1,599 275 907 181 11 112 11 15 4,596
10 Phil Esposito C 1963-1964 1980-1981 1,282 717 873 1,590 910
I’m just saying…check out #4.
Its all good boys
vancitydan
lol, so Francis was better than Lemieux too I guess?
You want to list off the all-time scoring leaders and call them the all-time best in order, go for it, little more goes into it than that for me.
Like the fact Francis was top 10 in league scoring all of 2 times, both while playing with Lemieux and Jagr, who were both ahead of him those years.
No...but Francis is way better than the guys you listed, thats all I am saying.
“Yzerman, Messier, Hawerchuk, Savard, Lafontaine, Oates, Hull, Coffey, Neely, all well ahead of Francis in terms of talent just off the top of my head.”
I give you the first three. But not Patty Lafontaine, or Neely (who I loved), or Coffey (yes, he is talented, but he is a D’man, I thought we were talking forward…Coffey is like 12th in scoring I think, so I totally agree he is a great player)
See, having durability in the toughest of sports is a testament to the player as well. Neely and Patty came up short there…unfortunately. I am sure we would have all loved watching them both play.
Denis Savard was very talented too. I would say he was more skilled than Francis, but as an overall player would rather have RF on my team long term.
Oates and Hull? Not quite, but close to the two above.
Just my opinion though. I would say that when Oates and Hull were together, they were magic…Hull may have been one of the most talented offensive players. But he wasn’t the overall player Francis was too.
Of course He wasn’t the player Mario was. I never said that.
But he is certainly better than some of those you listed.
I’m just saying you might be selling old Ron a little short.
Being 4th overall in scoring, with the names above, is pretty impressive…at least to me it is.
Peace
vancitydan
Longevity is great, but Gartner is no where near the goalscorer Bure was, period.
Hull and Oates were among the elite as scoring forwards for a number of years, Francis never really was, aside from when he played with Mario and Jr.
This reminds me of an argument I’ve had about who was better, Naslund or Sundin, and imo it’s Naslund because for several years he was arguable the best/one of the top very few players in the game, and you could never say that about Souptin.
Naslund better than Sundin? NO WAY!
I’d take Francis over most of the guys you listed as well. Wasn’t he more of a 2-way forward?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 23, 2009 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Way
Like I said, when was Soup ever an elite player, Naslund won a Pearson, damn near won the Ross a couple times, nominated for the Hart, Soup never came close.
And the question was about talent, not all around game.
And the question was about talent, not all around game.
Oh…well in that case you’re still wrong.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 24, 2009 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Hull and Oates?
I can’t go for that, nooo, no can do.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
be a reader, not a ranter
…just to be honest, I said “you must be stupid if”.
Not you are stupid. You don’t sound stupid. Until you got the whole “watch who you call stupid” chest thumping…
So, no, I wasn’t calling you stupid. I was calling the idea stupid.
There IS a difference.
keep your head on a swivel…
vancitydan
cart before the horse
So you start using the word stupid about other people’s posts and I’m the one with the problem???
Keep your head out.
and one more about AV there Yoata...
Look, you sound like a guy I would have a beer with. I mean you no animus at all. But don’t post like your opinion means more than any other here.
Yes, I have seen AV change lines ad nauseum. I have also seen him stick with what works. Don’t just think because he is a linechanger coach that he is not a good one. Some of the best used to change it up from time to time. From Toe Blake to Punch Imlach, Al Arbour and “ugh!” Glen Sather, they all had there go to guys. But they changed them up to get there.
I think AV found himself some great lines and stuck with them last eyar. He will have to do so again because of losing Sundin (..unless he comes back??!).
A centre that can think the game will be given every opportunity, regardless of his size or age.
BTW…from the sounds of it, most of my brethren here got the Canucks Bug in 82. I do agree that was a watershed year.
For me, it was 74/75…when guys like Andre Boudrias and Bobby Schmautz helped us win our first Div (Smythe)…before getting steamrolls by the Habs. But they won a playoff game…against one of the best teams of that era, and maybe all time….
Its all good though…glad you are Canuck fans one and all…they debates are just for fun…right?
vancitydan
they debates are just for fun…right?
No. You ARE going to die, man! haha! I kid.
I’m a big AV fan myself. Love his “earn top 6 minutes” attitude.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 23, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while
Yeah real brilliant of him to leave a line together that goes crazy right off the bat, but if not, change it up, yet again, the guy’s a guesser, not a thinker.
He knows D systems, which was badly needed after Crawford who was all O, but I haven’t seen anything from him yet to indicate he knows how to get the most of his offensive talent.
btw
Seems to me it was you taking issue with what I posted not the other way around.
You don’t agree with me, fine, but why does that necessitate the personal comments?
Dude...relax...
Its all good. The personal comments have been going both ways. Got to have a bit of a thick skin.
As I believe I said above. I bear you no animus. Just don’t like how you get that I am calling you stupid. Read again. I said…“that is just stupid”.
Its all good. If I have offended you, once again my apologies.
(BTW…it was more like the occasional HNIC game…maybe one or two a year. Radio and of course BCTV news on the old antenna. made it all the more fun being a fan when you had to work for it…not that I am bitching about now…love the ability to trade comments with you guys…)
I get worked up by it too Yoata…lets just remember that the spirit of anything said is not mean spirited…just spirited!.
Relax, take a deep breath, have a beer, or a toke, whatever floats your boat.
We are just talking here. It goes both ways Yotes…but I know its all in fun.
And AV is a way better coach than Crow. Last season, in the playoffs, before Willie’s Not so Excellent Adventure with clearing the puck, his system almost put the Hawks away. We all know what happened next. But they were less than 3 minutes away from taking one of the best offenses in the league out.
Hawks got off the hook. But the working hard D’ system they played in that game was pretty well the same system that won the Cup (Bylsma just played his Big Dogs more minutes thanTherrien, but its the same system that AV taught Terrien. I believe when they were both assistants in the Sens org.)
Its a great system when you have the offensive guys that can score off the rush and counter attack. Its why we need that D’man that can make that long pass. Not that Salo and Edler, or Juice can’t, but our system is predicated on having the puck and keeping it.
Playing good D’ when you don’t.
I like it, but I guess you have a different opinion that I about AV.
Its all good as long as he gets the team to the promised land though!
vancitydan
No worries
We’re on the same side, I’d never slam you like I would a Flamer.
Anyway, I was screaming for some D first (what else wins in the playoffs) when Crow was behind the bench, so call me fickle, but like I said, AV is a very good D coach, but honestly what has he done but guess when it comes to the offense? Now he hasn’t so much had the horses either (this team is still a 1st line sniper away from being real contenders imo) but I don’t think he’s done much to maximize the talent he has had. I’m somewhat of the opinion that with a $7M goaltender you’ve gotta go score and let him do his job, although the way Lu played in the 2nd round, among other concerns with him, I’m still not convinced he has what it takes to get the job done.
Re the televised games, yeah exactly freakin habs and leaf every Sat night, then the soilers got all the West games once McWayne arrived, tough sledding in more ways than one being a Nucklehead in those days, probably part of why I became a Wings fan as a kid (and still am today, yes I believe one can have two teams to cheer for).
I suppose AV is a guesser of sorts. His mind can sway from game to game on who he feels is clicking with who…or which guy is hot or cold. But I defend his style. That being said, I did find it ironic that Demitra bitched about having different linemates all the time during the Nucks’ terrible February and then all of a sudden AV sticks with the lines we saw all the way through the playoffs after that.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 23, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions
And I didn't say I didn't watch before that
But I was only 10 at the time so not that much memorable before 82, and besides how many Nucks games were on tv before then?
You are right Zanny...Yoata...my apologies
I have to remember…I am a positive person. I just sometimes go off on the creeping negativity that some long time Canuck fans have. Or see it in others. I am sure yoata is more positive than some you hear. Its a sickness that we have…I mean, some of you kids have been Canuck fans all your life too. I remember switching from Bobby Orr’s Bruins to the Canucks…Big change.
You kids (just kidding, I am only 46!) shaking his cane as you run by laughing You just have to rmember that some of us fans have been in the whole way, from when Capt Kirk was Capt. Kurt’…it changes a man! LOL
They see the same sort of attitude in prisoners of war when they are freed…the hollow eyes and the lost something attitude.
Being positive and a Canucks fan may seem to some as a contradiction in terms. I like to look at it more as a quiet resistance to the pitfalls that we eventually bring the big prize.
Vive Le Canucks Libre!
vancitydan
46, huh? 10 years up on me. I didn’t start following the Canucks until 1982. Too wrapped up in the Leafs, who my pops got me into in 1977. Back in the early 80’s, there were not many Canucks games on tv with our rabbit ears antenna! There was BCTV and news highlights with John McKeachie. I could always watch the Leafs on HNIC.
The fact that you are still positive about the Canucks after all these years is a testament to your character, make no mistake. My hat is off to you!
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 21, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Seriously, I’m only 16 years in and I’m a cynical prick about them most of the time.
Except Bernier of course. He’s perfect.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 21, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Sittler-Williams-McDonald line was awesome! Liked Mike Palmateer. I have no shame over my Leaf past. I still watch them on HNIC
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 21, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
The Significant Other was a street kid in TO during the Ballard years: she couldn’t watch hockey without seeing the Leafs, and never quite got over the horror of that time.
Of being a street kid, or the Ballard years?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 22, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
Didn’t see this post before I replied to your other.
And btw, I watched every game of the ‘82 Cup run and most televised Nuck games since if that gives you any idea how long I’ve been a fan.
So what did you think of Petri Skriko? haha
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 23, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
46? Pfft, put some time in, junior. I’ve been there since Day One ( yay, Barry Wilkins). First game was 1971, vs the North Stars. A fan since I was 8 years old. I guess that would explain the gray hair and nervous tics.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
been there...done that...
Believe me guys, I have been that cynical prick in the past. Had my hopes so high and then got shut down.
But after Bert’ went apeshit on Moore, and selfishly fucked over this team that year…( You can’t tell me without the Moore thing happening that we don’t pound the Flames that year….)
I mean, if I had taken Robson home after the game THAT night instead of Smithe, I would have been in a riot, and who knows what?
All the 1st round exits….in different ways…letting the Wild come back on us?
I mean…come on!!!
But now I try and handle it all in a more Zen fashion. Sometimes the puck just bounces the way it does.
No one could have told me Lou would let in 7. But what can you do afterwards but look towards the next game…or season…!
Leafs were OK, but for me, the team was the Bruins before the Canucks. I swear I could name most every guy on their Cup winners in the 70’s…From Orr to Espo,,Cashman to Hodge, Cheevers and that mask.
Derek Sanderson and the Ron Jeremy porn ’stache…little “Pie” MacKenzie kicking the shit out of Hammer Schultz…
Hated the fucking Habs then though…I can appreciate the talent of them now, but they beat down the Bruins too many times back then…
Sort of like the Gretz’ Oiler dynasty did to the Canucks.
Peace
vancitydan
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