Opinion: Gillis Will Not Add A Puck-Moving Defenceman Until After Training Camp
The talk of Mike Gillis adding another puck-moving defenceman derived from 3 different factors:
1. The exit of Mattias Ohlund
2. The Jay Bouwmeester sweepstakes
3. The painful schooling by the Blackhawks in Round 2 of the 2009 Playoffs.
Or a combo of all three. I'm sure Gillis took a stab at Bouwmeester this summer but let's be sensible here: Bouwmeester's salary would have been too much of a cap hit on a team that needed to sign it's top 2 forwards in the Sedin brothers, plus adding another top 6 forward, which eventually turned out to be Mikael Samuelsson. Consider the holes filled at the forward position with plenty of extra fish in the tank.
But is Gillis looking for another top 4 puck-moving defenceman? Is that even realistic at this point, cap-wise? Names like Darryl Sydor and Anton Babchuk are being tossed up (from what's left) all over the web.
While I would welcome either of those 2 players onto our roster, Sydor was making $2.5 million before hitting free agency this summer. Babchuk made $1 million last season and had a great campaign in Carolina. He is going to seek a raise that perhaps no NHL team is willing to pay him. Both players have not been signed yet and there is a reason for that. They are most likely commanding too much, or, in Sydor's case, are too old.
So why do Canucks fans keep insisting that we need this type of defenceman? Why wouldn't Mike Gillis wait until he gets a good gander at guys like Evan Oberg (for example, who IS a reliable puck-moving defenceman) at training camp? More importantly, why can't we expect to see Alexander Edler and Kevin Bieksa thrive in expanded roles?
Allow me to finish this post in point form to throw some stats and what-not at you:
-How many puck-moving D-men do you need to win a Stanley Cup? Pittsburgh's Sergei Gonchar scored 3 goals and 14 points in 22 playoff games this past spring. Coming in at 2nd for the Penguins was Kris Letang at 4 goals and 14 points in 23 playoff games. 3rd was Mark Eaton at 4 goals and 7 points in 24 playoff games.
-As for the runner-up Red Wings: Niklas Lidstrom had 4 goals and 16 points in 21 playoff games. Brian Rafalski had 3 goals and 12 points in 18 post season games. Brad Stuart scored 3 goals and 9 points in 23 playoff matches.
-What is my point? There were not a lot of points scored beyond the 2nd offensive defenceman for either team. Comparatively, Edler scored 8 points in 10 playoff games. Sami Salo scored 7 points in 7 games. Bieksa had 5 assists in 10 playoff games. (I know he can do better than that.) Mattias Ohlund had 1 goal and 3 points in 10 playoff games, but he did rank tops on the Canucks in +/- at a +5 rating.
-Are Bieksa and Edler that bad at moving the puck? I say NO.
-So if I'm saying we don't necessarily need another slick-skating, puck-controlling, well-known defenceman what am I saying? I personally think that we need a TEAM that doesn't collapse in their own end, like what happened in Round 2 against Chicago. Yes, I'm chalking that dreadful 7-5 finale to a collapse as a TEAM. It doesn't scream "get a damned speedy defenceman like M-A Bergeron or who-the-hell-ever-else."
-Why do I think that Mike Gillis will wait until after training camp to possibly acquire the aforementioned d-man? Because he has had plenty of opportunities to acquire one through free agency already and has stood pat. I think he's waiting to see if a player emerges out of training camp. And why wouldn't he? He has limited cap space left, and he'd have to flog too much cap space to acquire the defenceman that all these internet gurus think he needs to get.
If you think Demitra and his $4 million salary is getting traded to make room for a quality D guy, you need to lower your standards. That is wishful thinking. We are left with the cluster of players that will be vying for a top 9 spot at training camp, and none of those players would free up enough cap space via a trade route in order for Gillis to get a big-named defenceman and still fit his salary under the cap.
I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but this issue keeps getting brought up.
Am I losing you yet? OK, I'll stop now. End rant.
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58 comments
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Comments
Deep Breath
I’m not going to say a dang thing about Oberg until he gets a bit of time against professionals, m’kay?
As for Ohlund, I don’t think anyone believes he’s going to get better, so he got a good handshake and hearty congratulations and was shown the door. He wasn’t our best offensive defenceman, but he was the one lined up against Iginla, and that said it all, really…
I wouldn’t be in the least surprised to see us open the season with the current line-up. Some players are asking the moon, so we’ll see where the numbers go come October/November if none of the new additions pick it up. I think Bieksa has peaked, and while it’s a fine peak, it hardly qualifies as Mt. Vesuvius. Edler may well get better offensive numbers, but I don’t think by much; especially if AV keeps putting GD’ed forwards on the point during power plays…
A top-flight defenceman really changes how opponents view your team and forces them to consider not jut a match of forward lines, but who’s in the back pair as well. Teams know when Lidstrom is out there; they know when Pronger is roaming about. Likewise, players changed their game when Stevens was patrolling; coaches drew up counters for Housley. Heck, even lesser lights like Jovonovski kept opponents on their toes with his Wild Card play.
So do we need a puck-moving defenceman? Not necessarily. But adding another weapon to the arsenal is never a bad idea: especially if it’s one that changes how the opponents play their game. Right now we’ve got three good defencemen, and a fourth when Salo’s healthy. None are known for their speed, or their scoring: Edler’s got a good shot, sure, and Salo’s hammer is huge, but no one makes opposing blue-liners back off a step.
Our big play last year was repeated attempts at the two-line pass, catching a forward mid-flight along the blue line, but it was a damn predictable move with a low success rate because there wasn’t a second weapon to bring out. No one was afraid of letting Mitchell gain momentum into the attacking zone!
I really do think a puck-mover would be a big addition to the team. I can also understand waiting for one to come into our price range while seeing if anyone at camp can bring the game we want. But it’s not gonna be Lawrence Nycholat.
100% agree. Saying Oberg is going to be a reliable offensive defensemen in the NHL when he’s had only two seasons in the NCAA does not compute. At that rate Shirokov really is Pavel Bure.
And I absolutely think Ohlund needs to replaced by someone with some miles on their wheels. Sticking Rome, Funk or Nycholat is one idea, but expect the weakness to be pretty obvious, especially against teams with stronger offenses. Chicago would eat a guy like Funk for lunch (again, who couldn’t crack the Sabres blueline for multiple seasons). Nycholat especially made atrocious decisions last year with the puck in his own zone (and the fact Calgary and Colorado couldn’t find a use for him also says something).
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2009 4:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I have read great things about Oberg. I would say: “never say never”.
Why do we need a d-man with “miles on their wheels”? What’s wrong if a kid gets a spot? I’m not specifically saying Ohlund’s spot either, because I’m arguing that we don’t need that. That’s why I thought Vaananen could have stayed to shore up the bottom 6. Now maybe someone emerges from camp. You almost have to think the Gillis is thinking that way as well, since he hasn’t pulled the trigger on a deal yet.
I wouldn’t count out Funk either.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait you’re the one who keeps saying CoHo isn’t a sure thing cause he’s a rookie. And his pedigree, I’m sorry, stomps the shit out of Oberg’s. So I’m failing to see the consistency in what rookie is worth what ice time. At least CoHo is one of 12…our defense needs to be solid and, replacing Ohlund or not, a top four of Edler/Bieksa/Salo/Mitchell isn’t as strong as we think it may be. Chicago showed how slow they were collectively and we’ve done nothing to address it except either (a) add collegiate prospects or (b) add guys like Rome and Funk who haven’t flushed out in other places.
So you’re cool with a gameplan that amounts to catching lightning in a bottle?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 16, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m saying CoHo isn’t necessarily a lock because of the log jam we have in forwards and I don’t know who Gillis is going to trade away in the end to make room for him. Where did I say Hodgson wasn’t a sure thing because he was a rookie? You keep bringing that up.
a top four of Edler/Bieksa/Salo/Mitchell isn’t as strong as we think it may be.
That’s a matter of opinion.
Chicago showed how slow they were collectively
Was that really the point? Or was it the mental breakdowns? How many leads did we blow in that series again?
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ll disagree, obviously that:
-Bieksa has not peaked, IMO. Bieksa and/or Edler are supposed to be that “presence” out there that other teams take note of. You throw out names like Pronger and Lidstrom…those guys cost over $7 million bucks! Fuck that!
-Edler will get valuable PP time on the point
-So what if Ohlund was a thorn in Iginla’s side. We now have to rely on Shane O’Brien to be that guy I would guess. Someone else will step into that role.
-Bieksa doesn’t have speed? Really?
-The use of the work “m’kay”. Don’t do it. It really pisses me off.
I agree with:
-Adding one doesn’t hurt. But it would have to be a guy with a smaller salary, as we agreed on. Start pumping out names…. let’s hear it.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 1:10 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Bieksa and Edler havnt peaked. Both will most likely be 50 pt guys max, but there defensive game is just startin to take form. Defenseman take time to mature, and both guys are barely scratchin the surface of what they can potentially become.
I disagree. I think Bieksa has peaked. I think he’ll do better than last year, about as well as he did in 06-07 – it looked to me like he was pressuring himself to be Mr. Everything last year, and it backfired a little, making him a bit unfocused. I think he’ll settle down again this year. Love to be proved wrong, but I can’t say I’d be unhappy with that level of play for the rest of his career.
I do think Edler can increase his point totals, and I have no problem with his game. But I don’t think he’s going to hit fifty points, but that’s going to be partly attributable to the Canucks game style, which encourages shooting into the zone, controlling, then attacking the net. Again, I’d love to be proved wrong.
I see more out of especially Edler than you do. I hope you are proven wrong! If you are, I will gloat…oh yes.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Tell ya what, boyo...
What say a sampler pack of Unibrew rides on the season Edler has? If he hits, say, 45 points, I buy; 44 or less and it on you? More than a couple games injured makes the bet void, of course.
So: courage of your convictions?
Well, if he gets injured for 3-4 weeks then maybe we should call it void, OR we bet on his point pace for the season in the end.
I’m in. You’re damned right I’ll take that bet!
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Three weeks? Really? That could cut a dozen games from his numbers. We could go with point pace, but that can get skewed by a disproportionate sample… I’d rather go with a solid over/under number, then if, say, 10 games are lost to injury then your risk is void.
So: 45 points in 72 games this season for Edler with six bottles of Unibroue of the winner’s choice on the line. Sound good?
The only down side is I like their apple Ephemere, and that’s long gone by May…
Whoa..fussy!
It’s a deal!
I’ll take a mickey of Captain Morgan’s Spiced Rum. That’s all I drink!
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Done and Done!
I’ve got a mickey of that on hand right now, but it’s reserved for Baron Samedi and has had jalapenos soaking in it for a year. I’m guessing that’s not the spice you had in mind…
Sweet christ a year? +1 for you sir. Your stomach must be encased in lead.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 18, 2009 3:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, good lord, no! No way do I drink that stuff! That’s reserved for the Baron: my ulcers would kick holy hellfire outta me if I tried it.
Holy hellfire sounds like a good name for that concoction.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
My epiglottis and esophagus is still fucked from when I had ulcers.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 18, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Bieksa will be a rock this year and will end up being our BEST defenceman. The guy has consistently showed improvement, and this year with higher expectations, I expect a leap forward. Bieksa is a rare breed nowadays, from his awesome Moose initation to his “fury” on the ice. I wouldnt bet against him turnin into a bonafide star # 1 defenceman. We’ll have to see what this season holds for him, but I would hold off on settlin for “this” for his career. Mighty early to be ropin him into a permanent top 3 position. Powerful early…
If he stays healthy…I say he makes the All Star Game. Haha!
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
To do that...
…he’s going to have to stay focused, moreso than he was last year. I’d give up a few points from him for improved defencive play (which is already pretty good, even if he does run around a little looking for the big hit). It’s okay if he doesn’t, though, as he’s not really tagged to be the shut-down guy: that’s the Mitchell and Salo pairing.
I think Edler has the higher upside potential of the two, being five years younger and possessing an uncanny calm for his age.
Like when people were praising Jovo as our best D, he was actually the most exciting one, Ohlund was the best one. In this case, Bieksa may be the most exciting blueliner, but Edler’s going to be the better one.
I think Edler has the higher upside potential of the two, being five years younger and possessing an uncanny calm for his age.
You may be right indeed. Did we just agree on something? My god.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions
So what if Ohlund was a thorn in Iginla’s side.
It meant he was our most reliable D-man; replace Iggy with any star player in the league, and that’s the point. Whoever does fill the position isn’t going to be a fifty-point man, either: he won’t get the ice time for that, especially for what we can pay.
I’ve heard, for instance, that Campbell is available from Chicago; the big problem there is that he’s being paid like a Lidstrom, and will need to be that to justify his salary and the salaries that would have to be shed to acquire him. He’s not, of course, but that doesn’t reduce the value he does bring to the game. I’d love to have him on Vancouver, but not at the cost of either players or payroll he’s getting now.
Someone else will step into that role.
Um, I’d rather not rely on chance, thanks. 8) But yeah, I think Mitchell takes that on; possibly a pairing if he’s up against speed (hello, Chicago!). However, I’d also like to see a better spread of ice time for our six: if you’re going to reply to an all-star using one player, he shouldn’t also be the first guy out for the power play and first pair on the penalty kill. Keeping him as fresh as possible for the full game increases the ability to match players, at home or away.
If you want to use Bieksa to counter stars, you better dress Hordichuk more. Sure, Bieksa could get lots of rest, but if it’s for five minutes at a time, that limits what he can do for you…
Names, huh? Haven’t we been down this road before, once or twice…? 8) Okay, I’ll bite:
Yes, I like Marc-Andre Bergeron and think he would be a great fit at his cost and between 12 and 14 minutes of ice time. He’s got a very hard shot, he can join the rush, and he carries the puck well. Plus he’s going to cost $1.25 million per season (yeah, I’m calling it).
Laugh if you will, but Frank Kaberle’s on the list. Very good passer and skater, and reduced injuries coming with reduced ice time. A less-than-stellar season last year brings him in for far less than last year’s $2.2 million salary. An indifferent shot, but he can carry into the zone instead of dump-and-chase.
Dennis Seidenberg. Had a breakout year last season, but still shouldn’t be asking for loads of cash, given his lifetime stats.
Heck, you want to go right off the board? Give Patrick Coulombe a shot at it: he’s fast, can carry the puck, learned about that whole “defence” thing last year, dead cheap, and already under contract. Or pitch hard for Koltsov, now that we’ve shown that Russians are actually welcome in Vancouver once again…
I wonder if Coulombe will get another shot..I liked that kid.
I have wondered about Frank Kaberle as well. He doesn’t put up the points, but he does move the puck well like you said. But why was he squeezed out of Carolina?
M-A Bergeron’s inability to find a home concerns me.
I am thinking you won’t get your wish this summer. Maybe if no one steps up at camp then it’s a different manner.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
carolina had stronger d-men to fit the puck-moving role – so he ended up not playing much down the stretch (healthy scratch more often than not), so for the $$/minute, his salary was, er, a bit high. Then with all the other acquisitions over the summer… just no room/$$ for him. He did do admirably when called on in the playoffs this year when Babchuk… well just keep reading
If you’re looking for someone who doesn’t shit the bed during the playoffs, Babchuk is NOT for you. Besides, he tends to come across as rather arrogant even though he was the one that screwed himself out of the right to file for arbitration.
I’ve always liked Seids, he would be my pick.
by Andrea's evil twin on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks, AET. Wow, he does come across as cocky doesn’t he? Little fucker. No wonder why nobody has signed him yet. Thanks for the link to the interview.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Look ar what happened after Streit left
…the Habs. They sucked on the PP and breaking out for a while. They would have been better off just giving him his raise.
Now, I agree, lets let Oberg et al show what they can do.
Ummm…Iginla= Mitchell, not SOB…but I do think SOB has more to give, and he can handle the puck pretty good too…he is underrated at it.
Edler looks ready for the next step, and Bieksa has more to give….I agree with the main assertion of the post actually. I am so sick of people taking someone’s opinion just because they happen to write for a paper.
Lets see what happens, and then go the trade route.
I agree that it would be wise to replace Olie with an experienced guy though…
vancitydan
Ummm…Iginla= Mitchell, not SOB…but I do think SOB has more to give, and he can handle the puck pretty good too…he is underrated at it.
Agreed, actually.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Lang went down, too. He was a surprisingly effective secondary scorer for the Habs. Speaking of which…
Heck of a deal the Blueshirts got for Prospal, eh?
Some coaches and GM’s (in this case Torts) just attract the same guys over and over again. See the Burke/Brad May love of many moons now. As well as Vigneault and……
Bueller?
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 18, 2009 3:54 AM PDT up reply actions
To be frank, I’m just happy that the Canucks can say that we’ve got an off chance of developing a player from the system into anything worthwhile. It’s been a while since the ’Nucks were developing players instead of always turning to Free Agency or trades.
Let’s face it, the Canucks as they stand are a character team that wins as a collective. For the longest time, I considered the Sedins overrated because they don’t have fast wheels, deadly shots, 100+ point seasons, or big body checks. After a roster with Bertuzzi, Morrison, Naslund, and Jovanovski on it, this team is a snorefest. But with time, you begin to appreciate how consistent the Canucks are when they’re playing as a team, and they still manage to make their way into the category of middling contender without a top-grade talent to be seen (aside from Louie, of course).
Gillis is demonstrating that he’s willing to take the time and find his man. He and Vignault are building a team around principle. To just add any wheeling defenseman to the system would be a disaster, if it was a guy who didn’t buy into the system. Better to take the time, test out the water, and see if you can get someone who’s in the system from day one to step it up. It’s always better to be underrated than overrated, based on the last couple of seasons.
Always liked the Sedins, myself. I do think having a full-team of threats is a far better way to win than a line of stars and…? It’s one reason why he’d like to see Pudge on the third line rather than the second.
Likewise, having a puck-carrier that can regularly come out of the zone with the puck under control (and backing up the opposing D) will add another weapon that we simply don’t have right now. It would not only increase our depth, but also mix up the team profile during a game.
To just add any wheeling defenceman to the system would be a disaster, if it was a guy who didn’t buy into the system.
There isn’t a player in the league you can’t say that about, though. Well, unless he’s got a really good Corsi.
There isn’t a player in the league you can’t say that about, though. Well, unless he’s got a really good Corsi.
Exactly. Which is why patience can’t be a bad thing, right?
If we simply wanted another second-line players, Gillis could go out an pick up Bertuzzi again, and probably at a bargain-bin price. But we all know he’d detract more than he’d add, since he wouldn’t fit into the Canucks system well.
In the case of a wheeling defenseman, there’s no example which compares. Any of the players could fit in. But you don’t want to just stick someone into the spot in the hopes that he does. Weigh the options, try to build from within, and pick up someone after a while if you feel the issue still needs fixing.
Right now, all the comments about needing a fast d-man comes in light of a tough series against Chicago. But we have until March to really fix the hole, and it may simply be a non-issue by the time March roles around if someone steps into the spot. What’s the worst thing that happens if he waits a bit longer? We drop the division title to Calgary? No one here cares about another division title if it means actual playoff success anyway!
great blog zan
I totally agree with one. Be patient and try to grow the player first. Kevin Bieksa and/or Edler may have the makings of the D man that we are dreaming of. We will never know if we do not give them a chance to grow into that player.
I think this may be a completely new kind of Canucks team one where players are given an opportunity to reach their full potential.
Remember early in Larry Robinson’s career (likely not i am old) but back in the day they called him the stork- then big bird – then that awesome D man that is anchoring stanley cup wining hockey teams. It takes time and trust – (sometimes).
Don’t get me wrong though..even despite this debate…I was hoping we’d get Scott Niedermayer months back. Then again..who wouldn’t want that guy? Of course, that was before the Sedins and OB re-signed.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I understand clearly making the team better
But I agree that is not out there right now. There is no sense spending big money on a move that “might” work out. Better to give the home boys a chance and see if they can rise to the challenge and to the job.
They players all want to win. Having said that they will appreciate the chance to be the “man” and if that is not working out and a move or big trade needs to be made down the road. I think that show of support will help them accept that.
Like I said though, the Canucks have less that $3 million in the bank. So IF a bonafide D-man is needed after all is said and done (like a long-term injury for example), they will have to move some considerable salary, unless they find a diamond somewhere…erhm Ian White.
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 16, 2009 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Or...
On the other hand, dropping someone into the team with two months left in the season may not be the right approach, either. Getting someone at the beginning of the season allows for time to adapt to the new coach and new system for the player, and time for the other players to adjust to him. If later you decide a mistake was made (or a young guy DOES prove himself capable), then you can jettison the new face and use a player that was there all along, is already known to the team and coaches, etc.
Conversion:
Can any of our plethora of forwards be converted into D men, like Washington did with Federov from time to time?
If not I may have Murray Barron’s old Geocities email account lying around somewhere…
if that were to actually happen, i could imagine hordichuck being a brutal defenseman. just a thought…
GO CANUCKS GO!
Blackout’s about the last guy I switch to defense
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Aug 17, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Murray Baron. Now there was a beauty from the “glory days”
by Sean Zandberg on Aug 17, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions

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