Hodgson to Miss World Juniors
by Sean Zandberg on Dec 8, 2009 8:02 AM PST
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PrintCody Hodgson's back is still ailing him. He has officially backed out of the World Juniors training camp, according to TSN.
Wow, this back issue is serious. I hope it's not a long, long-term problem.
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Anyone coming around to the idea that he shouldn’t have been out there in preseason now?
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 9:58 AM PST reply actions
The link in the post goes to the roster that still shows him playing. The story from the Globe & Mail about him backing out is here.
Anyone coming around to the idea that he shouldn’t have been out there in preseason now?
He said he was up to it and the team docs cleared him.
During camp and pre-season, his fans (such as yoata and yourself) watched him play … and called for more ice time. Well, yoata for sure; to be fair, I can’t remember if you did, too, S312. And not one of them called for him to be sat down and not allowed to play. If you can remember commenting, during pre-season, that he should have been kept off the ice, would you mind linking to it here?
Anyway, later on, his own doc cleared him after the fact, too. So I suggest giving the 20/20 hindsight a rest, cuz we still don’t know what his condition was at the time, not really, nor whether his 3rd and current physician is correct today, or just a very, very cautious man in general.
Or both? Yeah, that’s possible, too.
The following apply to all of us, no one can avoid them and still be human:
Neglect of probability — the tendency to completely disregard probability when making a decision under uncertainty.
Confirmation bias — the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one’s preconceptions.
Outcome bias — the tendency to judge a decision by its eventual outcome instead of based on the quality of the decision at the time it was made.
Hindsight bias — sometimes called the “I-knew-it-all-along” effect, the inclination to see past events as being predictable.
There’s lots more, too, but the above are probably most relevant to this discussion, at least re us. Re Cody himself, others might apply, e.g.:
Illusion of control — the tendency for human beings to believe they can control or at least influence outcomes that they clearly cannot.
Need for Closure — the need to reach a verdict in important matters; to have an answer and to escape the feeling of doubt and uncertainty. The personal context (time or social pressure) might increase this bias.
Selective perception — the tendency for expectations to affect perception.
Oh, and perhaps everyone’s favorite:
Bias blind spot — the tendency not to compensate for one’s own cognitive biases.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
My argument at the time was based on the fact that he was out on the ice. So therefore, if the guy is on the ice he is healthy right? That’s what I had to assume. Cause if he was hurt and out there anyway that shows a great deal of negligence on the part of the Canucks training staff. We called for more ice time because if you want to see what a young top 6 forward can do you have to give him top 6 minutes and play him in top 6 roles.
My argument now has nothing to with my argument then. My argument now is that he shouldn’t have been on the ice. See what I have done is I have looked at what has occurred since preseason and re-evaluated the situation. If you don’t want to do that you don’t have to. But once I re-evaluated what happened I realized that the kid had a seriously injured back that should have been picked up by our training staff and he shouldn’t have been on the ice. And the coach certainly shouldn’t have been calling him out.
My issue is that he was misdiagnosed. Or not diagnosed at all which gives me great concern over the quality of our medical staff. I think the situation also shows that our coach is far too quick to call people out for the way they are playing. And we have seen that before. And believe me it gets old with the players really quickly.
Simply put, base don information we have now, the Canucks screwed up when trying to look after their top prospect. Sure it’s easy to say that in hindsight, but what else do I have? We can’t just give them a pass because it happened in the past. I mean what is next? A bad draft gets over looked cause hindsight is 20/20? You are smarter than that casual.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
You’re very quick to call “negligence,” IMO, for a situation where Cody himself was the primary source of info (“How’s the back feel, kid?”), in an area of medicine that is as much art as science, and in a situation where we still don’t know, not really, what his back was like then and what it’s like now.
Believe it or not, in spite of all our args on this topic, I like and respect you, and I especially appreciate that you’re willing to defend your args by stating what you would have done instead: you last said that, given what we now know, you’d have had Cody on LTIR this year, even for all this time, and you were willing to state that when others merely dodged the question. That’s pretty cool.
But I think you overestimate the certainty of medicine and underestimate the power of the perception. A lot.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Well I have had back injuries that were diagnosed and fixed quickly and a couple of times fairly easily considering the amount of pain I was in. If you are a doctor and an 18 or 19 year old kid who is trying to make it to the NHL for the first time says he is OK you have to take that with a grain of salt. If he says, “it’s a little sore” and I am the doctor then I just heard, “something could be seriously wrong” You have to translate from 18 year old trying to be tough into regular language. But your right I don’t know how bad it was then. Although I have read recently it is a bulging disk that he injured doing dryland in the off season. Bulging disks aren’t that hard to diagnose.
But I have a solution. Dr. Gregory House MD. Hire him to look after the Canucks.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Interesting. Who’s Gregory House?
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
He is the main character on the TV show House. He is supposed to be like the world’s best diagnostician. It would have been a funny reference if you had seen House.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
I fucking laughed! haha. Agreed! Bring in House!
by Sean Zandberg on Dec 8, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Apparently I have been missing a good show! Is it still on these days?
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Oh yeah. It is still on. I think it is in season 6. Hugh Laurie plays House. He was in Blackadder.
He has won some awards for his performance as House which most of the time is a pretty serious show. But knowing him from his days in England on shows like Blackadder and A Bit of Fry and Laurie I also know he is a comic genius.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
Thx! The missus & I were saying the other day that we need a new show!
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
If you like medical shows and you like Sherlock Holmes you will love House.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
From Globe and Mail
He suffered a bulging disc during dry land training in July. The Markham, Ont., native attended the Vancouver Canucks camp, but struggled to keep up and has not played since.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Again
spin spin spin , make all the assumptions you want about what was said, what’s far more likely, and supported by their hard line with him before and after training camp, is that Hodgson was pressured into playing hurt because if he didn’t at least try, he wasn’t going to be given a chance at all.
And a 19 y/o blue chip prospect with a back injury should NEVER be put in that position.
Can you admit that once and for all instead of deflecting with backhanded potshots about some BS question that you have tried to make the end all and be all of this discussion?
If you really want to see what a top prospect can do, do you play him 10-12 mins per game or do you give him a real opportunity?
by yoata on Sep 27, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
If Hodgson goes back to junior and makes a comment to reporters about how little ice-time he got…
Is he speaking the truth or does he have an attitude problem?
by yoata on Sep 27, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
…He’s not a checker/energy guy/banger/crasher, he’s a projected top line player, how are you supposed to really asses that ability with 4th line minutes…
by yoata on Sep 28, 2009 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
More spin
don’t post the ones where I said he looked like he was still injured or anything!
lol, you are so pathetic.
Absolutely correct
especially
And the coach certainly shouldn’t have been calling him out.
That, and those who defended it, are complete bush.
Do you really think this kid is going to miss the World Juniors and most of one of the most important seasons of his career in terms of development because it hurts a little in his back and his doctor is cautious? You think that is more likely than the fact that the Canucks doctors screwed up and the kid is in extremely rough shape with his back? Cause if you think the first one is more likely we need to do some gambling with each other. I could use a second source on income.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
Do you really think this kid is going to miss the World Juniors and most of one of the most important seasons of his career in terms of development because it hurts a little in his back and his doctor is cautious?
Yes. After all, that’s exactly what you are now saying he and the team docs should have in pre-season, is it not?
And before you reply, think of this: is your reply based not only on your certainty as to the state of Hodgson’s back at the time, but also on a perception of medicine as being able to definitively and objectively, with no input from the patient, make a correct diagnosis in every instance?
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
is your reply based not only on your certainty as to the state of Hodgson’s back at the time, but also on a perception of medicine as being able to definitively and objectively, with no input from the patient, make a correct diagnosis in every instance?
I kind of responded to that above.
Yes. After all, that’s exactly what you are now saying he and the team docs should have in pre-season, is it not?
No. I am saying that to me, based on what I have seen and read and heard since the preseason, there is something seriously wrong with his back that should have been looked after and taken care of in preseason. And had all of that happened he might be back and playing by now.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
You keep
parroting that over and over about “his own doc after the fact” care to link to evidence of that here?
(other than AV/Gillisgan spew)
I said repeatedly in the preseason that he looked like he was struggling, weak, not yet fully healed, etc, but that’s not the point, we are not medical pros, nor did we examine him even if we are, they did, they should have known better, they FAILED.
A hypothetical: Jordan Schroeder comes to camp next year. He says he feels fine, a bit of a sore shoulder from training real hard, but he’s ready to play. The docs clear him, too. Do you keep him out of the lineup anyway? What if he then plays poorly? Do you sit him down even tho he and the docs agree he’s up to trying?
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
If the doctors clear him to play you play him. That has never been the problem. The problem is that the doctors shouldn’t have cleared him. In the scenario you posted above you play him. But if it turns out after the fact that the kid was hurt badly you have to think about getting new doctors. Oh and maybe an apology form the coach for calling a guy out for his play when he was too hurt to be out there.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
What a crock of spin
yet again.
Shoulder = back?
“a bit sore from training” = a diagnosed bulging disc that has required months of rehab?
Dear Dr. S312,
Your patients, Messrs Hodgson and Shcroeder, each say they have minor soreness, no more. There is always a probability, however small, that any medical prob could escalate, but they assure you they feel only the minor soreness typical of any athlete in a contact sport, and they wish to participate in the most important career—defining camp of their lives to date.
What is your diagnosis, not with 20/20 hindsight, but today? If you get it wrong, you will be negligent.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
If only I was a doctor casual. I wouldn’t be broke all the time.
If there is pain in the lower back (and if the kid hasn’t been hit in two months that pain is most likely not from contact associated with playing hockey) it is pretty easy in this day and age, especially for a hockey team, to send a guy for a quick scan to see if there is anything structurally wrong in the back. A bulging disk would show up in a scan. Then you give the kid rest and anti-inflammatory medication and maybe a cortisone shot for the pain and you check back in a week or two.
I have read all the studies and reports about patients being the number one barrier between doctors and a correct diagnosis. But that is why the doctors get paid so much. They have the responsibility of making sure guys are healthy.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s just that easy.
And maybe not.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Well the thing with Lower Back soreness is that it is very uncommon in people under 30 years of age. That is healthy people under 30 years of age. I am 27 and 30 pounds overweight and I have no pain in my back. The only time I have it has been injury related from playing basketball. So that is a warning sign right there. I guess my point is I don’t trust the Canucks medical staff as much as I did before. And I am still pissed that AV hasn’t come out and apologized publicly to Cody after he was so quick to publicly call him out because he was playing like crap.
And in hindsight I don’t think Hodgson should have been on the ice and I wish the medical staff had caught his back injury before it got worse.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
Take it from a guy with a perpetually sore back (tall man, long back, bad combination), bad backs are not as uncommon as you think. And yes, I watch my weight and I exercise regularly – e.g. min 2x weights every week and 2x heart/lungs, too – and, well, I guess it helps, but I still gotta be careful. Such is my fate.
My sister had an x-ray – she has the same prob as do others in my family – and found a prob in the spine, in the vertabrae. I’ve known this for years. Think you can get me to go get myself checked out? Nah, it’s just a little soreness….
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
"Minor soreness"
Fuck there is no end to your spin, pointless as you will never admit they were wrong, probably even if they ever had the integrity to do so themselves.
That’s a 20/20 diagnosis too, likely made after the pre-season ended, based on statements Cody made to his doc; were they the same as the statements he made earlier? Apparently not.
CT Scan/Myelogram – A CT scan is similar to an MRI because it provides additional diagnostic information about the internal structures of the spine. A myelogram is used to diagnose a bulging disk, tumor or changes in the bones surrounding the spinal cord or nerves. A local anesthetic is injected into your low back to numb the area. A lumbar puncture (spinal tap) is then performed. A dye is injected into the spinal canal to reveal where problems lie.
So you’re gonna tap into each player’s back, anesthetize it, and perform a spinal tap even when he says he’s OK, anytime he has any soreness? Which is like … well, after pretty much every game there’s a few guys who’re sore.And even after that, a bulging disk can still be a subjective interpretation, as w/reading an X-Ray, of the image that results.
Remember, if anything goes wrong, even if it’s the result of a hit in a subsequent game over which you have no control, you will be negligent.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Let me ask you this.
Are you happy in the wake of this incident knowing that the same doctors and training staff that handled Cody Hodgson’s back are handling players like the Sedin’s and Luongo on whom our playoff fortunes rest? Are you confident that our players are receiving the best care that is available to ensure they are healthy and when they are not healthy that they are being treated correctly?
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:59 AM PST reply actions
Yes. Because I know the diff between good care and 20/20 hindsight. It’s like our predicting the scores. it’s only tough because we have to do it before the event.
Gillis is a former agent, he comes from the player’s pt of view. The current payers’ agents will also, typically, review the situation cuz that’s what they’re there for. Players often hire experienced personal trainers who too would spot problems, were there any. Aquilini will have his own people vet the med personnel – well, I sure would if I ran a billion dollar biz – as well.
None of which is as good as 20/20, I know. I get it.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
So you actually think that Cody Hodgson got the best care he could have from our medical staff?
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
My question then would be this.
Why did the Brampton Battalion send him for a second opinion and our staff didn’t do that? Why wasn’t he sent to a back expert after the first or second preseason game when he complained that he didn’t have his regular explosiveness? Could they have done more to diagnose Cody before he was sent to junior?
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
What clinical feedback (answers to q’s) did he give to docs in general after, a.o.t. before, camp?
Look, I like the kid, I didn’t want him cut when he was cut, I wanted him to play more games and improve. But 20/20 medical certainty from non-docs? I’m a “reluctant patient” myself, or so I’ve been told (‘tis but a flesh wound!), so I can relate. But that’s my own failing, not my doc’s.
Doesn’t make me a bad person; doesn’t make Cody a bad person, doesn’t mean we “deserve our fate,” either, when it backfires (there’s a cognitive bias for that, too!), just means that we’re reluctant patients.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Oh yeah listen if you feel a lump on your balls but put off going to the doctor for 6 months and it turns out you had cancer that whole time and now it has spread and is inoperable. That is your own fault and you do kind of deserve what you get. But that is just my opinion on people who don’t go to the doctor. And I am one of them.
As for Hodgson. I wasn’t there. I don’t know what he said. And neither do you. My point is that with an 18 year old kid what he says needs to be understood in the proper context. If he says it feels fine then I guess you have to trust him. But when he later says it is sore and I don’t have my usual explosiveness then alarm bells should be going off.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Most guys hate going to the doc; we’re like dogs that way, never show weakness. If my doc didn’t give me kibble treats, I’d probably never go at all.
But that still leaves you, as a doc, with a patient presenting with no discernible reason to hold him back, not till later in the pre-season shortly before he got cut. And by that pt, it was pretty much over for him anyway.
And he was the only one who thought he lacked explosiveness in that leg (he mightta been right, too, dunno). No one here spotted it at all. Coaches never spotted it, nor did his teammates, nor did Gagner, nor did Cody’s agent.
And unlike a disk, you don’t need to do a spinal tap to check it out, just put him on the weight machine and see how many power reps that leg could do and how quickly, then compare it to the other leg. Heck, Cody couldda done that himself.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Well I don’t think he was the only one. I remember people taking about him looking off the pace. We weren’t sure why but we noticed it. And the coaches are the ones who should be spotting that stuff. That is their job as well. Seems to me the further we go down the line the more people are becoming complicit in screwing up this kids season.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
A lotta rookies look like they’re caught off guard by the pace of the NHL. Heck, that’s probably the most common comment a rookie makes in any pro sport, that the biggest diff is how much faster everything is.
Ok, maybe not baseball….
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Yeah but I mean more along the lines of Hodgson looking slow. In terms of how fast he looked playing for the Moose in the playoffs or at the WJC. He just didn’t look right. I remember thinking that a couple times. You would think AV would notice since that is what he is paid to notice.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
I’ll take your word on Hodgson as a Moose since I never saw him play for them.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
He looked good at times but clearly was a little off the pace and tired.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Yoata
is going to be all over this one. Shudder.
Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance, and lead the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance.
Oh, S312 is a far superior proponent of his side of the debate than yoata ever was.
People generally quarrel because they cannot argue
—G.K. Chesterton
See that quote? That’s yoata. At least w/S312, he defends his positions honestly with argument and doesn’t dodge q’s about what he would have done instead.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
I still think yoata isn’t that bad. It’s just that at some point you get to that part where you have to agree to disagree but he won’t. He has this thing where it seems like he has to get you to agree with him no matter what. And then it devolves into personal attacks and taking things WAY out of context and at that point he starts to lose credibility. But we had a great argument going about Osgood for a long time. It’s just every time I tried to say “OK that’s enough we aren’t going to agree on this” he would keep going.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
If you wanna play psychologist, it starts with insecurity. You don’t need to be a shrink to know that loud and rude ain’t exactly a badge of confidence.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
LOL
but doing your best impression of either a parrot or the three monkeys is right?
You have a lot of nerve speaking about anyone you’ve “met” on a blog that way, but if it makes you feel superior, that is what’s important.
Talk about insecurity, you are so textbook from your sycophantics to your pseudo “I wanna say cool things so bad, please let me be cool” chatter, you literally scream need for approval and acceptance, but in your spin world I’m sure you call that “confidence”.
Personally I could care less what people think of me, I have the confidence to say what I think and back it up whether it’s popular or not, but in your upside down world that makes me “insecure”, too fucking funny!
Irony is, yoata does know hockey pretty well.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
You
were just as guilty of that as me Section, you matched me post for post, so don’t tell me I was the only one keeping it going.
If you re read it I tried to put a stop to it. Maybe not very well. But I will sleep well knowing that I tried.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
I went back and looked over it again. Take out the maybe. I made at best a very feeble attempt to stop.
by Section 312 on Dec 9, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
As opposed
to spin spin spin, casual’s first last and only line of defense, mainly because he obviously doesn’t care about how defendable his position is, only that it aligns perfectly with whatever Gillis and AV spoonfed him.
I’ve answered that repeatedly and you know it, Section even told you so at the time, but you didn’t want your little red herring to die so you keep perpetuating the myth, just like the one that Hodgson was “looking for an excuse”, you still spewing that garbage too, or is there a fresh new spin on the old spin?
BTW, every time I look at the headline to this post, I get visions of Hodgson entering the “Miss World” pagaent, junior variety. Anyone else think that, or am I alone in my nightmare?
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Hopefully not. With a bad back walking in high heels is a killer.
by Section 312 on Dec 8, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
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