Canucks 4 Kings 1
by Sean Zandberg on Nov 27, 2009 2:26 AM PST
in Game Review
108 comments
Well geez looky here: Kyle Wellwood and Alexandre Burrows broke out of their slumps against a "tired and weary" Kings team tonight, scoring a goal and an assist each. A great statement game for the Canucks, who played their game well minus a few hiccups. Even then, Roberto Luongo was glorious tonight.
Looks like Kyle Wellwood has bought himself a few more games, hasn't he?
3 Stars:
1. Roberto Luongo
2. Alex Burrows
3. Ryan Kesler
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Hmmm…he scored on American Thanksgiving? Turkey motivation? Coincidence? I think not.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
by Yankee Canuck on Nov 27, 2009 5:35 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I fail to see how taking two or three tries to score an empty netter, plus an assist that to be honest had little to do with Wellfed and more to do with Tanner Glass has bought him more time. Sure, he did double his point output for the season but 4 points in 20+ games is still horrendous.
I mostly agree. One night of okay production won’t save his NHL career. He needs to be a consistent threat in order to earn staying with the big team.
That being said, I don’t dislike Wellwood, and after Glass got credit for the goal, I was cheering for him to pot the empty netter and got a kick out of the smile on his face when he finally did. If he didn’t finally sink that final putt, can you imagine how much worse he’d be feeling today. Hopefully last night will get the monkey off his back, get his confidence up a bit so he can get back some of the production he had last year.
Oh and if the guy starts scoring now what does that say about him? I mean I know confidence is important and all that but as yoata pointed out he hasn’t even been creating chances. Like struggle to score, sure. Not even create a chance once in a while? Not cool. Even when Burrows was struggling you noticed him out there creating chances. If Wellwood just needed the confidence of a goal then that tells me he is pretty fragile mentally.
True
Unless Wellwood can pot 20+ goals for the rest of the season, I don’t think he’s worth keeping around past this season. At that point, the cons will simply outweigh the pros. He certainly has great soft hands, and is actually quite good on faceoffs. The soft touch helps on the shootouts, but the team needs to get to OT before that starts to benefit them.
Agreed. The face-off thing is slightly over-rated IMO. Puck possession is obviously important but since Hank, Johnson, and Kesler are all good on the face-off (the last two especially) I don’t think you need to keep a guy around just to be a face-off guy. We have enough of those in guys who help the team. Wellwood needs to produce more to play 3rd line otherwise as you rightly say he isn’t around next year. Even if he does produce I think you let him walk though since you should have Hodgson, if they don’t screw that up again, and possibly some other prospects coming into the team.
Man…you guys…Welly was 8 for 10 on the faceoffs last night, and has always been a good faceoff guy.
Its NOT underrated…jeez…tough crowd you and yoata…you would think Welly fucked your girlfriends or something!
(just kidding…relax!)
The earliest use of the word with the spelling we recognize today is found in "L'Acadie: or Seven Years' Exploration in British America" by James Edward Alexander, published in 1849:
We also met a lusty fellow in a forest road with a keg of whisky slung round him who called to us 'Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck"
It's totally overrated
He’s 4th on the team in faceoffs, we have 4 centremen, that means he’s the worst on the team.
I said slightly over-rated. I think that is a pretty fair comment. Slightly isn’t a word you hear often in association with someone who needs to relax. I just think that guys like the Sedin early in their careers or even a guy like Cody Hodgson, sorry Sean, have taken heavy criticism for playing poorly yet Wellwood seems to have all of these well wishers. I mean he is barely an NHL level player at this point, he is a former Leaf and he is fat. You would think they guy would be run out of town on a rail.
Don’t be bitchy Section. Watch the replay, he made a nice play at the line, and rushed the puck up into the zone. He certainly deserved the assist.
As for the empty netter…it was two tries…and the Canucks #1 sniper hit the post too.
Cut Welly some slack…
Sure, its a pitiful amount of points…through he is a plus 3 with that small amount…which means he has been good all season on the defense.
The earliest use of the word with the spelling we recognize today is found in "L'Acadie: or Seven Years' Exploration in British America" by James Edward Alexander, published in 1849:
We also met a lusty fellow in a forest road with a keg of whisky slung round him who called to us 'Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck"
There's enough
people cutting him slack, I’m here for reality checks.
Others on the team certainly weren’t given any slack, why does he get so much do you think?
Perhaps because he’s a 2-time Gillisgan hire?
I hear you guys…its just that on the one day we get to have a feel good day with Welly….I just thought you guys were just being killjoys a little bit.
We all understand the reality…you can see how popular he is from the reaction throughout the game last night.
When is the last time there was a sustained standing ovation for an empty netter in a 4-1 final?
Thats all….sorry if I sounded bitchy about it…
;-)
The earliest use of the word with the spelling we recognize today is found in "L'Acadie: or Seven Years' Exploration in British America" by James Edward Alexander, published in 1849:
We also met a lusty fellow in a forest road with a keg of whisky slung round him who called to us 'Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck"
Probably not much. More a ‘monkey off the back, and now do it again’ type thing. Crowds are not good at sarcasm in general.
Ever hear
a crowd “cheer” their own goaltender for making a stupidly easy save after letting a couple bad ones in?
Pretty sure Lu got some sarcastic cheers in game 6 against the Hawks…
Oh yeah. Crowds are very good at being sarcastic! See Patrick Roy’s final game as a Hab!
Good question..was the crowd’s cheer for Wellwood sarcastic or genuine? I’ll go with genuine mostly, judging by the looks on their faces from the images of Woody scoring. I know my cheer would have been genuine.
by Sean Zandberg on Nov 27, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t understand why anyone likes this guy. Wasting huge talent cause he doesn’t like to work hard. He has all the ability in the world but he would rather not put in the work to be a top player. As someone who didn’t have the ability I hate to see so much of it go to waste. I mean people have been very hard on a lot of former Canucks who had the same affliction. Anyone have any idea why he is so beloved? He really hasn’t done much in his Canuck career to have earned this much good will.
by Section 312 on Nov 28, 2009 12:53 AM PST up reply actions
I hear ya. I am trying not to hate the guy more than anything else. I see him work hard in his own zone though. He’s not completely useless. It’s in the offensive zone where he starts floating, or not showing enough passion. If he wasn’t so good defensively, he would have been gone already.
by Sean Zandberg on Nov 28, 2009 2:09 AM PST up reply actions
Dustin Brown 3rd Star
Must be the first time in history a player is -4 with no points in a 4-1 loss and is somehow considered one of the 3 stars of the game (according to the NHL, anyways).
Wellwood’s history w/the Canucks is that he needs to think he’s on the verge of being cut, his career over, before he perks up.
Does this mean he plays better under pressure? :)
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
What pressure?
He’s been given a free ride, for all their talk of guys having to earn their spot and play their way up, it’s all been just that.
Wellwood's best game
was the game where he got highsticked twice (or was one a puck) where he lost teeth and was bleeding everywhere. He played physical and scored a couple goals if I remember right.
We just need to smash his face in every few games to get his intensity level up.
Yeah, Steve, it seems he needs something – pressure of being cut, a stick to the face, whatever – to up his intensity and then we get to see his talent. Ditto in practice where it sounds like he has a hard time practicing as if it were a game.
I nominate Alex Burrows to stomp on Welly’s toes before every shift. Or maybe Sean or I could do it on an amateur tryout contract? For the love of the game :)
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Ditto in practice where it sounds like he has a hard time practicing as if it were a game
Welly’s got some sort of psychological problem or a fucked up attitude about intensity levels and his teammates oughta have an intervention with him. Knock the shit out of him (psycically speaking).
by Bobby Canuck on Nov 27, 2009 10:58 PM PST up reply actions
Love this quote from Welly after the game…from McIntyre’s story;
"I think that’s the difference between Vancouver and Toronto," Wellwood, the former Maple Leaf, said of the fans’ support. "People really want to see our team have success. And we want to show them that we’re working hard for them and we’re going to keep trying regardless of whether we’re playing well or not.
"I was laughing because I missed [the first open-net]. Then I saw how hard Kes and Burr were working and I thought: you know what, I may end up getting it back here so I better make sure I score."
The earliest use of the word with the spelling we recognize today is found in "L'Acadie: or Seven Years' Exploration in British America" by James Edward Alexander, published in 1849:
We also met a lusty fellow in a forest road with a keg of whisky slung round him who called to us 'Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck"
Then I saw how hard Kes and Burr were working
There’s the problem right there, it’s just not they guy’s first instinct to work hard himself, it’s like he has to be constantly reminded that that’s what it takes to get things done at the highest level, talent alone is not enough.
It’s one thing for a kid to learn that lesson and use it, but at this stage in his career he shouldn’t have to be constantly re-learning it.
He observed someone working hard. It’s reaching pretty far to think that automatically means Wellwood doesn’t work hard himself.
Not to mentioin
the implication of what he said is basically that he wasn’t going to bother with the 2nd effort until his linemates basically shamed him into it,
i was actually thinking about that. only 6 goals let in during the last 4 games. luckily for him, they don’t decide on the canadian olympic roster until the end of december…….
i mean no harm. i come in peace. unlike shane o'brien or kevin bieksa........
watch out for the Rypper too, he can whip anyone.......
GO CANUCKS GO!
Luongo was the reason we won last night. He was great in the 2nd period it could have easily been 3-1 Kings going into the 3rd had he not made some great saves.
I’m also surprised at how much love Wellwood got last night (capped by the crowd booing the change of goal from Wellwood to Glass). This city is notorious for having bandwagon fans who throw everybody under the bus in a second. I’m glad we’ve found someone that gets some support during a struggle. Now its time for Wellwood to reciprocate some of that love by lighting the lamp more often.
He’s also one of the more interesting and unique interviews on the team. That works for me as far as likeability goes.
by Bobby Canuck on Nov 27, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
rec’d! nice!
i mean no harm. i come in peace. unlike shane o'brien or kevin bieksa........
watch out for the Rypper too, he can whip anyone.......
GO CANUCKS GO!
yeah, too bad no one else seems to be catching on…..
i mean no harm. i come in peace. unlike shane o'brien or kevin bieksa........
watch out for the Rypper too, he can whip anyone.......
GO CANUCKS GO!
catching on with Wellwood fat jokes? That was so last year. I think Jenny Craig jokes would be more fitting this year.
by Sean Zandberg on Nov 28, 2009 12:34 AM PST up reply actions
You mean like
even she’d have more points than him right now if she were the Nucks 3rd line centre?
by yoata on Nov 28, 2009 1:14 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
So…Yman…give me the Bum list…I’m curious…not being a dick…I know Bernier and Welly are on it….Hordi too?
But who else is not deserving of the Blue and Green?
I like to try to take the positive, so my list would be guys that impressed me with their play lately. But whatever you prefer…
That list would include Luongo and Henrik,Kesler, Ehrhoff and Sammy at times. Glass is continuing to impress. Doesn’t seem to matter which line he gets put on.
Raymond of course, though he has cooled a little bit. Raycroft in limited duty, though the two bad games were REALLY bad…
The other guys have had travails in spots…like Burr and Salo….Bieksa.
I am sure I am forgetting someone…but before I start ripping the team apart, I want to see how they do when they are all healthy. They have been pretty good the last say…five games or so…since the St. Louis game.
Of course we want them to win them all…but if they keep playing like they are now that they are getting almost all their regulars back, I am guardedly optimistic.
It is always something with we Canuck fans. I swear we are the most dysfunctional in the league.
Part of the charm…
LOL
The earliest use of the word with the spelling we recognize today is found in "L'Acadie: or Seven Years' Exploration in British America" by James Edward Alexander, published in 1849:
We also met a lusty fellow in a forest road with a keg of whisky slung round him who called to us 'Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck"
Failwood and Hordichuk are bums this year for sure.
Bernier would be fine if he were paid like the 3rd liner he is, my problem with him is more with that contract than anything.
Glass is fine as an injury call up, not sure he’ll ever be much more than that. When we are healthy if Grabs, Hansen find their way into the top 9 regularly I think we’ll be ok, but the biggest thing is up the middle, Johnson doesn’t have the talent to move up so Wellwouldacouldashoulda gets to keep his job at 3rd line pivot that should be you know who’s.
Don’t have too much of an issue with anybody else on the whole, Lu needs to be more consistent, and rise to the challenge in big games, Edler needs to right the ship but he’s young, Bieksa needs to lay off the nonchalance at times, Salo may just be getting old but I still like his poise, Schneider to but he has been a liability more than anything so far. The rest I think are doing what they should, Hank, Kes and Orrhoff exceeding expectations, Burr having the expected drop after a career year, Raymond benefitting from the increased opportunity, Sammy as well. Love RRumble and all Hansen needs is more opportunity.
How’s that?
Then there's SOB
the third of Gillisgan’s amigos, all I can say is at least he’s the one that’s where he belongs right now.
Said in the spirit of nonchalance. I:-)
by Bobby Canuck on Nov 27, 2009 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
Perfect. I would disagree on a few of the assertions, but not too much. I think Schneids has really picked it up lately. though he was a bit of a liability defensively when he first slotted in. I like his pairing with Orrhoff though…last night was a night that I think you saw more of what we can expect. He cover for his partner a couple times and rubbed guys out along the boards to turn the puck back to his teammates.
His passes and thinking the game have been pretty good too. So, would disagree there. But thats what makes the threads so much fun though, right?
Hansen I agree totally on…he looks to be a much more rounded player this year.
RJ though, I could really care less about what he can deliver offensively. His value is in other areas. Penalty killing was a big part of the win last night…not looking at the box score right now, but I remember at least two blocks on the PP. His faceoffs on the PK were and have been great. The PK blanked the Kings when they could have changed the game. He and Burr and Kes and Bernier and Raymond and Hansen all played pretty good in that regard.
Think about if RJ doesn’t win the draw ( was it him or Kes…that were all great last night…won about 70% as a team.) on that 2 second 5-3…Kings would have had at least one Grade A scoring opportunity, instead of the puck being cleared.
Lui has not let in more than 2 goals in his last 6 I think, something like that. Pretty consistent coming off the injury. We all thought he might have a bad game or two coming out of that…but so far so good.
Glass is much more than an injury call up, I think. Wellwood is ever the enigma, but lets all form a circle and send him good vibes…all that positive energy to that wooden stick he finally went back to.
Maybe he will surprise us. If you take away the negative about the offensive struggles, I have been happy with his defensive game. That used to be his biggest liability, and is now an integral part of his game.
SOB hasn’t been on the ice lately…so yeah, not really including him in the convo. Should be interesting to see who stays or goes…when Grabs and Demo come off the IR…something has to be done…so…????
Back to you…
;-)
The earliest use of the word with the spelling we recognize today is found in "L'Acadie: or Seven Years' Exploration in British America" by James Edward Alexander, published in 1849:
We also met a lusty fellow in a forest road with a keg of whisky slung round him who called to us 'Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck"
Didn't
see the game last night so I’ll take your word on Schneider, though he was -1… always liked him as a player and he finished the year strong last year but not sure how much he has left in the tank, hopefully more because he can contribute to this team in so many ways that are needed.
I don’t think Hansen is a lot different than last year, I was saying then (and before this season on this board) that all he needed was an opportunity, he’s starting to get that now, hopefully that continues.
Never said anything negative about RJ, he is what he is, a defensive specialist and a guy that plays his guys out, though he too is perhaps a bit ovepaid, but not a lot, just that he probably can’t legitimately vie for Failwood’s spot, and it’s too bad that they never provided for that need up the middle…
Talk to me about what Glass is in a year or two, at best he’s a 4th liner but there are so many better options who can contribute the needed scoring depth that he can’t that I’ll be surprised if many even remember his name by then.
Lu has been better I’ve said that recently, but like I’ve also said before, goaltenders are made and broken in the playoffs, especially $7M goaltenders.
Grabs has to get another shot, imo, and in a scoring role with quality linemates. IF Demo comes back, definitely something has to be done, hopefully to address the middle, maybe that means he’s 3rd line pivot, but I’d hope for more, they have the assets, will Gillis have the balls to trade surplus to fill holes?
Gillis didn’t make Luey a $7.5M goalie, Nonis did. So you can’t keep criticizing how much he’s making this contract.
Not criticizing the contract
as much as I am thinking that he hasn’t really earned it yet, reg season maybe, but as I’ve said, to me elite goaltenders earn the title by winning when it matters most.
At least Nonis kept the deal short, not tying the team’s hopes till the end of time to a guy who’d never been past the 2nd round.
yoata that was ridiculous. You go on and on about Luongo and his 7.5 contract and then give Nonis a pass for giving it to him because it was short.
You must understand that the reason Luongo makes as much money as he does is because if we didn’t pay it to him someone else would. And when building a team you can’t build around proven Stanley Cup winning goalies becuase there are only about 4 or 5 of them in the league and the teams that have them won’t let them go. So you have to do the next best thing and build around a guy who has the ability to be a winner in the playoffs. Then all you can do is hope.
Yup. Watch a team with goaltending woes, t’aint a pretty sight, and they’ll do damn near anything to fix it, with good reason. We’ve got solid goaltending locked up, and instead of a $7.5m cap hit, G-man got it for under 6.
Good deal. Luongo won’t be the best goalie on the ice every night, no one is, but his consistency will mean he’s the better goalie on most nights, a lot of them, like last game for example. And that adds up.
The opposite of serious is not funny; the opposite of serious is unserious.
Locked up forever
with few outs, so if another 3-4 years go by and still not so much as a final?
Still in love with the deal then?
Anyway, like I said, don’t mind the contract so much, mind the fact he has not yet earned it when it mattered most.
I go on and on
about the fact that he hasn’t earned it at the most important time.
Of course somebody else would give him that, that’s why Nonis gets the pass, and because he didn’t commit to him forever like Gilisgan has, and remember Lu was a lot younger when Nonis signed him, wasn’t 30 and never past the 2nd round.
Now many would give Soup $10M?
As far as the ability to be a winner in the playoffs, that cannot be determined until it happens.
As far as the ability to be a winner in the playoffs, that cannot be determined until it happens.
Exactly. So as a GM don’t you just have to go by what your coaches, scouts and all of that tell you? And if they tell you the guy you have is their best shot at a cup winning goalie you have to trust their opinions. We will have to wait to see if it works out. And until it does or doesn’t the contract MG gave Luo should not be judged.
BS it should not be judged
If he never wins us a cup is he worth it?
What’s there to indicate he ever will?
Like I said, guys who’ve gotten it done prove they can get it done, guys who haven’t haven’t.
Cloutier was always pretty good in the reg season too, imagine if they’d locked him up for 12 years.
“If he never wins a cup is it worth it?”
No. But I would prefer to judge that at the end of the contract or Luongo’s time here, not 25 games into the first season of the deal. That’s one of the most epic examples of pre-judging somthing that I have ever seen.
“What’s there to indicate he ever will?”
What was to indicate Cam Ward would win one before he did? Nothing. Fleury? Nothing. In fact people thought he would never win in the playoffs. Couldn’t win the big game. too mentally fragile. THen bang back to back finals appearances and people now think he should be starting for Canada. How about Peyton Manning? Approaching if not already 30 and couldn’t win the big game. Now 3 or 4 years later some say he is the greatest of all time.
Like I said that guys who have proven it aren’t available. So you go with a guy who you and your staff think has what it takes to get it done. If Luongo doesn’t then MG failed but it is WAY too early to be judging that as I said before. Luongo is big, very quick laterally, technically very sound and works extremely hard to improve every year. That is why I think he will win in the playoffs one of these years.
Cloutier was a mediocre goalie with decent stats that were inflated by playing behind a very good team. everyone knew that from watching. A 5 year old could watch Luongo and Cloutier play and see the vast difference in ability level. For someone who I respect a lot that last post had a lot of “ifs” and “what ifs”
I should now correct myself since I guess we are still on the last year of the deal Nonis gave Luongo. So you are judging the contract MG gave Luongo before it has ever started which makes the pre-judging that much more epic.
It is what the market dictates he get paid. Fleury and Ward were young. Guys who are young and win cups early in their careers are rare. You could go 50 years drafting a guy and trying to win a cup before the guys gets his first big contract. Plus again yoata regular season success has to factor into how much you pay a guy because you need to MAKE the playoffs before you can win in them. Playoffs are more important in judging a guys legacy and career but regular season success maybe even more important in determining contracts. I say that because the regular season is so long and very few teams with weak goalies make the playoffs. Plus making the playoffs makes the owners a tonne of money so the guy who is the biggest difference maker in getting a team to the playoffs, regardless of how they do in those playoffs, is going to be paid well. That way the owners will feel confident that the team will continue to make the playoffs and they will continue to make money.
Guys
who win Cups are rare period, and often they win more than one or at least make more than one final.
Regardless, neither of those guys get the contracts they have without making the finals as they did, and neither are paid as well as Lu or for as long.
Of course reg season play means something, but I stick by my assertion that elite goaltenders are a product of getting it done when it matters most.
I hope he does earn it as a Nuck, but he hasn’t yet.
Well I think you are taking a slightly simplistic and unrealistic look at how contracts are or should be awarded in the NHL. Almost everyone in the league is overpaid if you are basing elite guys on playoff success. Hell. Ovechkin is overpaid in that scenario. Contracts are awarded based as much on market forces and a guys ability to help make a team money by winning games as they are based trying to build a playof winner.
Goaltenders
we are talking goaltenders here.
And yes some of those are overpaid too, the other ones who’ve never even made a SC final, there are several in Lu’s payscale, none signed for near as long though…
I never said
Cloutier was as good as Lu, only that Lu has gone as far in the playoffs…
Ward and Fluery… what were they paid before they at least made a final again…
Here's the crux
"If he never wins a cup is it worth it?"
Section: “No.”
Fleury’s earned his, Ward his, Giguere his, Lu has his and now we hope he earns it…
Agreed. I said earlier, “And when building a team you can’t build around proven Stanley Cup winning goalies becuase there are only about 4 or 5 of them in the league and the teams that have them won’t let them go. So you have to do the next best thing and build around a guy who has the ability to be a winner in the playoffs. Then all you can do is hope.”
What else can you do? Go out and get a Brodeur or a Fleury? Then you still just have to hope they can win another cup. Hope is all we got.
Still think
you are missing my point.
Ward and Fleury… and Osgood… and Giguere… and Khabibulin… and Ranford… and even Roy and Brodeur at first, prove that your “hope” for a SC winning tender is as good or in fact better with the guys who aren’t superstars in the regular season.
And lots of great reg season tenders have never been SC winners.
Both prove my point that reg season great does not necessarily translate to “winner”.
So we should get a mediocre goalie and hope he turns into a playoff superstar? Seems to me that’s a longer shot than getting one of, if not the, most talented goalie in the league and hoping he becomes a playoff superstar.
You are missing my point. I am saying to build a team you have to take your best guess at who will pan out as a playoff performer and lots of people in hockey think that Luongo has what it takes. Now most guys, like 95% will never win a cup and will never come close. Only 1 team wins the cup every year and 30 are trying. The point being that Cup winning coaches are few and far between, Cup winning goalies, GMs, etc etc are few and far between. So you put out the best possible team you can with players and coaches you think have what it takes to win a cup. They won’t. Statistically speaking they have very little chance of actually winning a Cup. So you do your best and then you hope.
Still not the point
You can do all that without committing a big chunk of cap space for just about ever to a guy that is 30 and never been past the 2nd round.
That has been proven over and over again.
Now show me an example where doing so has worked out for the team?
It’s not a bad deal for the cap hit but neither is Dipietro’s deal if you just look at his numbers, but both are still a big risk, especially since both will be virtually untradable with those terms if they don’t win soon.
If in 5 years he hasn’t won anything can we not jsut buy him out for the remaining 7 years by paying him upfront half the value of the remaining deal? What would he have left on the deal at that point? It would just cost the owners some money but maybe they already discussed that as a contingency.
Show me an example of where a team signed a goalie KNOWING they were going to win the cup? It’s a guessing game. You take your best guess. And you will be wrong. 29 out of 30 guys will be wrong. So being overly critical of signing the most talented goalie in the league seems silly.
The most
talented goalie in the league.
That’s just it, you say that based on his reg season, I say no he hasn’t earned elite status until he at least makes a final, he’s 30 and never been close.
Nobody knows that, don’t be silly, but by committing that much for that long to your goaltender that’s basically what you are saying, that you know he can do it, and imo you don’t know that until he’s done it.
Semanitcs
It’s not about being critical of Lu, he will have to be a huge part of this team’s success if they are to have any.
But I think you get my point, just goes back to how you value goaltending, you have your definition, I have mine, but we’re talking about winning a cup, and for that purpose my definition has the better history behind it.
I am not talking about winning a cup. I want a consistent contender. Then some cups will hopefully come. You can’t build a Cup winner because as I said so few teams win the cup. You build a team that is a Cup contender every year, like Detroit, and then you will win one once in a while. Luongo’s contract is managable and he is the most talented goalie in the league. It gives us a great chance to be a consistent contender.
And it isn’t semantics. Elite players aren’t always the most talented platers. Look at Wellwood.
Wellwood
ain’t that talented.
But anyway, Luongo is elite… in the regular season… but again, that doesn’t necessariily translate to cups or even contention.
Detroit illustrates my point perfectly, Osgood won two cups there as a starter without ever being considered “elite” in the regulare season. They brought in (and grossly overpaid) Chokejo who was so highly regarded despite never having made a final, and they got no where with him in net.
What exaclty does “most talented” mean? I’ll take Brodeur over him any time anywhere, whether he’s as “talented” or not.
It means he has more talent than any other goalie in the league. Talent being god given ability to play his position.
by Section 312 on Nov 28, 2009 11:15 PM PST up reply actions
Your assertion that you have to win in the playoffs to be elite is subjective. So where is the concrete in your argument?
by Section 312 on Nov 29, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
What?
I think maybe you need to look at the lists I posted in the Oly thread where we started this debate and then decide how subjective that is.
It is anything but subjective, it is highly indicative, which is why I have that assertion in the first place. It’s not some theory I dreamed up and then tried to prove, if one wants to attempt to determine greatness, one needs first define it, and do so in tangible terms.
Greatness? Or who is an elite goalie? What are we talking about here then? I don’t think playoff succes defines an elite goalie. So therefore your belief that it does is subjective just like my belief that it doesn’t is subjective.
Except
it’s not belief.
Like I said, look at the lists, tell me how many non-elite goaltenders have been to the finals more than once, let alone won a cup or two.
Now tell me how many Vezina winners were one-hot wonders?
I’ve defined for you in concrete terms what to me indicates goaltending greatness, but don’t take my word for it, what’s your definition? Give me some tangible criteria for the definition, not just “talented”.
In terms of, y’know….the future, Corey Schneider looks like he could possibly be awesome in a Cup run.
by Bobby Canuck on Nov 28, 2009 6:31 PM PST up reply actions
We'll likely
never know, at least not as a Canuck, unless Lu gets injured before Schneider is moved.
Schneider? Lots of goalies can win in the AHL and then don’t do much in the NHL. He has looked mediocre in most starts he has made at this level. He looks to be a star in the making but I would prefer a star in the now. Which we have.
by Section 312 on Nov 28, 2009 11:17 PM PST up reply actions
Jesus Christ! The longer the contract, the less it costs us per year! Gold! More money to spend elsewhere! Glass is half full for me.
by Sean Zandberg on Nov 28, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions
Schneider to me seems to be rounding into shape. Last night he showed glimpses of grace, played well with Ehrhoff on the PP, seems to know when to shoot, when to pass, and from where. Has a cannon.
I’m inclined to agree with you on Glass, but there’s a part of me that feels that he may be one of those players who will get better and better and grow into a competent NHLer.
i am a supporter of glass. he is definitely becoming a better NHL player. he should definitely stick around.
i mean no harm. i come in peace. unlike shane o'brien or kevin bieksa........
watch out for the Rypper too, he can whip anyone.......
GO CANUCKS GO!
Welly
If he goes another 20 games without a goal and any sort of on-ice presence (jesus christ he can’t stay on his feet, he’s like Raymond in his rookie year), Wayne Brady and I will get out of this car and choke a bitch. Double points if you get the reference.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Nov 29, 2009 1:32 AM PST reply actions
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