Canucks Assign Shirokov To Manitoba
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 10:43 AM PDT
in Manitoba Moose
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PrintSergei Shirokov looked out of pace and place in his first 3 NHL games, registering zero points and was a -4. There were times that I thought that if he just scored once that perhaps he'd start flying. Playing with the Moose will help him. I'll quote Mike from the comments thread in the post below:
He got sent down because the Moose have back to back games in the next few days whereas the Canucks don’t play again until Sunday night. He’ll more than likely be called back for Sunday but I doubt he’ll suit up after the win. I’d guess his next game is next Friday in Calgary.
I mostly agree with that, except that if the Canucks keep winning I wouldn't be changing anything until an injury occurs.
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I wish he was a part of the lineup last night. He probably would have broke out!
But it’s good to see Raymond click on line 2. Him before Shirok that’s for sure.
He’ll be back.
Yeah, he should be back after he rips it up in the AHL. It’s probably good for him to have a more gradual introduction and get some confidence back.
It’s too bad he didn’t play vs the Canadiens though. It looked like there was more room out there with the end to end play and Shirokov could have taken advantage and got some points in the regular season.
Oh well.
I sure hope this is more for conditioning than anything else. Maybe Shirokov will have a couple good games on the farm and get a little confidence back but if he is being demoted for any other reason than to keep playing games then I will be disappointed. He had a good preseason and was just coming back from an injury for the first couple games of the year. This team seems to have a short leash for young players and I am hoping that the short leash isn’t the reason for this sending down. I don’t think it is…I am just also hoping it isn’t if that makes any sense.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 11:35 AM PDT reply actions
My theory stems from the CDC Tweet from yesterday:
#Canucks forward Sergei Shirokov has been sent down to Manitoba. The Moose play back-to-back home games this weekend vs. Chicago.
'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.
I like Shirokov, but I like Raymond more so if Shirokov has to move down for Raymond to get his shot then so be it. It’s better for the team and Raymond proved it last night with beast of a goal.
Burrows + Canucks = Stanley Cup!
And I think Raymond has been good since preseason.
Hope he keeps driving to the net like that.
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I still don’t understand where all this good will for Raymond comes from. He has never done anything to show he has what it takes to be a top 6 forward. He shows very occasional flashes of being a good forward but other than skating around really fast he doesn’t do much consistently.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 11:45 AM PDT reply actions
Yeah, I can see your point in one sense, however management has high expectations for him this season and it’s a contract year for him. I think he’s going to “break out” this year. 20-25 goals is not out of reach for him if he would take the bull by the horns. I see lots of drive in him right now. More than last year. I hope he surprises you, 312. I’m banking on it.
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
His best ever season as a hockey player he scored 82 points in 55 for Camrose in the AJHL. That’s Junior A. He had 11 goals last year in 72 games. He may turn into someone who can score 20 goals but a guy who needs a career year to get to 20 goals isn’t a top 6 forward. I think he has a role to play I just don’t see why he gets a pass a lot of the time from Canucks fans and other guys don’t. Must be cause he skates fast and fans like that.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
By the way for those who don’t know a good season in Junior A is around 100-110 points in 55 games.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
So 25 goals isn’t top 6? With the current team it is. His 11 goals came with less minutes and mostly on line 3. He has a chance in top 6 now because Demitra is out. Good time for AV to bump up Raymond I’d say.
I just don’t see why he gets a pass a lot of the time from Canucks fans and other guys don’t.
Who are you you referring to?
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Who am I referring to? Almost every other Canuck who goes through a scoring slump gets ripped to shreds.
And I am sure 25 goals is a top 6 forward. What I said was you don’t want a guy who has to have a career year to get to that level in your top 6. You don’t want a guy who could score 20 goals in your top 6 you want guys who do score 20 goals.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, a ‘career year’ and a ‘break-out year’ are not the same thing. If he hit 20 goals once, and that was his peak (ie. a career year), then I would agree with you. However, Raymond is still very young, and is on a steady upward trajectory. He looks like he could have a break-out year this year – ie. establishing himself as a bona fide 20-30 goal guy. I base this on his play this year – he looks stronger, craftier, and more willing to drive the net. Plus, he is still the fastest guy on our team. Not sure why you are down on him.
Upward trend? Those must be some nice drugs you are smoking. 9 goals in 49 games in 07/08 and 11 in 72 games in 08/09. Yes he had two more goals, but he did it in 23 more games. That’s not an upward trend. But again I am not saying he is a bad player. He just seems to have Canucks fans drinking the Mason Raymond cool aid. He is decent but not as good as some of the Canucks fans seem to think he is/will be.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Section knows
Raymond might develop more, but he’s what 24?
Kind of getting late based on the trajectory. Hope I’m wrong but this goes back to Gillisgan choosing hope over proven performance.
It’s a combination of his Palffy-like speed and the fact he was referenced on ‘How I met your Mother’.
Bring me Stanley. Alive if possible, dead... just as good.
by King Luongshanks on Oct 8, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmmm, I disagree with your comment. I think Raymond has shown progression every season, and last year in the playoffs seemed to be his comin out party. He broke into the league as a slim and fast forward, he’s bulked up and added more drive to his game. His defensive game is gettin better, and he’s startin to annoy other teams.
He’ll never be a 100 pt guy, but he can pot 25 goals and scare other teams with his speed. Great 2nd liner with a glowing future.
And further props to the Nucks for developin him well and not rushin him along.
You don’t want a guy who could score 20 goals in your top 6 you want guys who do score 20 goals.
I see your point but disagree, mostly because of what I projected Raymond to do this season. And yes, that is pro-management thinking.
My memory is hazy. How about Bernier on line 2? Wouldn’t that work?
Plus, Raymond gets promoted and the Canucks win 7-1. Kind of hard to argue that result isn’t it?
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok well Tanner Glass was also in the line-up for the first time and we won 7-1 should we trade the Sedins now and hand the reigns over to Glass? It’s flawed logic to equate Raymond and the teams performance. He now has 1 goal and 1 point in 4 games. That projects to 20 goals and 20 points in 82 games. He might prove me wrong and I hope he does. And I am not saying he is a bad player. He just gets a lot of rope from Canucks fans that he hasn’t earned.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
While that is true (lots of rope he hasn't earned)...
…a certain pair of current first-liners had the same thing said about them.
Ok well Tanner Glass was also in the line-up for the first time and we won 7-1 should we trade the Sedins now and hand the reigns over to Glass? It’s flawed logic to equate Raymond and the teams performance.
Love it! I knew you’d read into that way. That’s not what I meant. I meant that line 2 came alive on the scoresheet..and yes, Raymond was a part of that.
He now has 1 goal and 1 point in 4 games. That projects to 20 goals and 20 points in 82 games.
Now THAT is flawed logic.
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d love to sit here and argue with you more, but I’m going golfing and then camping. In the meantime sir..I’d like you to re-focus and show Canucks management the proper respect it deserves in their decision-making process. :)
by Sean Zandberg on Oct 8, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Golfing and camping? Lucky bastard. It is -4 where I live and there is 6 inches of snow on the gournd.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
They are getting
the respect they deserve.
They have done very little to improve this team and are getting the credit for what their predecessors did.
Its flawed logic to equate Raymond scoring with the Canucks winning? You might want to bone up on your logic.
No eades2000 that’s not what I said. It’s flawed logic to equate Raymond getting promoted to the second line to the 7-1 demolishing of the Habs.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Luongo was better, the D played much better as a group and Erhoff in particular, the Habs were horrible and their D is brutal, and the Sedins went to town. How many of those things have anything to do with Raymond?
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
My money = where my mouth is. Just dropped Owen Nolan and picked up Mason Raymond in the NM hockey pool.
by Beantown Canuck on Oct 8, 2009 12:54 PM PDT reply actions
Good move. Raymond has played himself to the top 6. He’s using his speed effectively, getting good scoring chances and he’s winning battles for the puck.
It’s a bit shortsighted to say that he’s getting a ‘pass’ since everything in hockey fluctuates. More accurately, he’s getting rewarded for his most recent play. If he slumps and stops scoring for 30 games, he won’t be playing on the top 2 lines. For now, he is fulfilling that role perfectly – it would be a bad decision to not give him those minutes.
When Shirkov comes back I’d like to see him drop to the 3rd line and see what he can do there.
Raymond didn’t play his way anywhere. He was just as bad in the first three games as any one else. He got promoted to the second line cause there was no one else to take that spot. He was only slightly less bad than Bernier so he went up a line while Shirokov came out. Everyone had a good game last night so there is no reason to think that had anything to do with Raymond’s promotion. This guy is a second round draft pick who has not showed that he is a big time scorer at any level he has ever played at and we know he goes through long ass scoring droughts. So where are you guys getting all this optimism from? Drinking the Raymond cool aid I imagine. I love guys with speed but come on. If you think this guy ever gets close to being as good as Kesler you have another thing coming.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I saw the first three games differently. I thought that Raymond was one of the better Canuck forward in those three games, using his speed well to create chances, and appeared better at not being pushed around so much as when he first entered the league weighing 160 lbs soaking wet.
Last season he had a great start, then had a major slump, and AV changed his role to be more of a checker. I thought towrads the end of the season and the playoffs he improved his defensive play which has made him a better overall player.
I don’t think he’s got the skills to ever be a first line sniper, but if can start putting up 40-50 points in a second or third line role I think that would be great.
I also hope Shirokov gets another chance with the team, but I think a few games with the Moose will do him good.
I think he is capable of putting up 40-50 points but I want more scoring than that from a second line player. 60-70 would be more what I am looking for from a second liner. Otherwise the pressure to score will be on the Sedins and they are better when they are getting help from other scoring sources.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
The expectation of having second liners putting up 70 points seems a bit unrealistic to me.
Last year, the Penguins had two players with over 50 points (Crosby & Malkin).
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000502009.html
Detroit had a bit more balance in their scoring, but still only had 3 players with over 60 points.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000342009.html
If our first line put up 80 points each, our second line averaged 50, and we had a couple 40 points defensemen, we’d be among the highest scoring teams in the league.
Well the Crosby Malkin thing is a bad comparison I think cause we don’t have any players in their class offensively. Points is probably a bad way of looking at it too. I mean if we are talking averaging 50 points are you assuming 25 and 25? Cause there are two assists available for every goal. So if a line is averaging 50 points you have to assume it breaks down a little more like 20 and 30. And if that’s the case we are talking about scoring 60 goals from a second line which is decent. Detroit’s had a little over 70. Plus Detroit’s top line had over 100 goals and ours doesn’t get that high. So that’s why we need a little more from our second line. But yeah Raymond will probably be a solid player for us who contributes offensively and his speed scares opponents. I just don’t think he is as good as some people seem to think. That’s my point.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
And as for the way he played in the first three games. Well he may have been one of the few Canucks that wasn’t horrible in the first three games but that doesn’t mean he was good. He uses his speed well at times to create chances but until he starts scoring more regularly I will stick by my opinion that he gets too much rope from Canucks fans. It’s just one of those things. Canuck fans really seem to take to certain players and forgive them for all their flaws. Or make excuses for them or something. I mean as much as it pains me to say it, Trevor Linden, a great player, was never as good as Canucks fans made him out to be. I am not comparing Raymond to Linden in any way. Just saying that when Canuck fans take to a certain player their judgment seems to become impaired.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
And actually it works the same way in reverse now I think about it. Like Jovo was never as bad as people made out. Nor was Bertuzzi as big a floater as Nuck fans made out. A floater to be sure but I went to 20-30 games a year back then and he floated exactly the same amount as Naslund. But Canuck fans were blinkered by their love of Naslund and didn’t feel the same way about Bertuzzi.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Disagree with you there
Jovanoopsi was brutal defensively, should have been a forward.
Flaotuzzi was the biggest butterfly I have ever seen after signing his big deal (long before the Moore thing)
And Naslund was even better than fans gave him credit for, no he wasn’t good defensively during the WCE days, but he bought in to AV’s system and got criticized for lack of scoring because of it.
Jovo wasn’t as bad as people thought. It’s classical Canucks fan thinking. He would turn the puck over at times but more often than not recovered because of his speed. And as for Naslund. Say what you want about the AV days but I am talking about when Bertuzzi was here and everyone was calling him a floater all the time. I was at the arena watching them for more than half of the home games every year and I would watch both Bert and Nazzy almost exclusively when they were on the ice. Naslund floated as much or more than Bertuzzi. I am not saying he wasn’t a good player just pointing out that Canuck fans seem to over value some guys and over criticize others. If they like a guy they forgive him and turn a blind eye to the down side.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
you said that already.
Still say Jovanoopsi was brutal and so was Floatuzzi.
Naslund proved he COULD be responsible defensively, something Bert has never done anywhere he’s been.
If Jovanovski was brutal why was he such a sought after FA? And say what you want about Bertuzzi but you still haven’t showed any reason why when they were both playing together and both floating Bertuzzi got more flack for it than Naslund. A lot of VERY good GMs have brought Bertuzzi onto their teams so he must be providing something.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions
He provides
decent offense and a big body at a discount.
The reason is Bert floated more, he was way bigger but never hit anybody, stopped driving the net or even parking himself there, took tons of lazy/dumb penalties, and made brutal pass after brutal pass, can’t say any of those things about Nas.
BFD he’s sought after, McPivot Sorray and even Phanoops are/would be sought after too and get big bucks but that doesn’t make them any good defensively.
Well your remarks on Naslund are laughable. That guy took lazy penalties like he had bonuses in his concert for PIMs. You are clearly one of these typical Canuck fans that is blinded because of what Bertuzzi became but pre-Moore incident he was as good a player if not better than Naslund. Never hit anybody? He took out two St Louis D men in one series with good clean checks. Al Mac was never the same.
And clearly I didn’t realize you know more about evaluating talent than NHL GMs.
by Section 312 on Oct 9, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Clearly
you need to learn to read.
I said Floatuzzi turned floater after his big contract, well before the Moore thing, and I was saying it then, all season long BEFORE the Moore thing.
So don’t tell me what I am. What you are is someone that paid little attention if you think Naslund was a penalty machine and Floatuzzi wasn’t, check the freakin stats man, Naslund’s 2nd lowest pims ever as a Nuck was his last season here. Floatuzzi had previously taken penalties for being aggressive, after his big contract they were mostly infractions out of laziness.
LOL at the evaluating talent jab, so are you saying those Dmen ARE good defensively???
Would they be in the NHL if they didn’t bring something to the table in their own end?
And as for when Bert became a floater and when Naslund proved blah blah blah. I don’t care. I am talking about when they were both on the team together. Canucks fans loved Nazzy and were always on Bert about floating. Yet Nazzy at that time was floating just as much. That is the point I am making. Nazzy was overly loved and Bert overly disliked by Canuck fans because that is what Canuck fans do. They over and under value their own players. I don’t care what Naslund did after Bertuzzi left because that isn’t what I was talking about. Naslund proved he could play D. Great. Naslund is much loved by Canuck fans. As he should be. But at the time of the WCE line and all the love Naslund was getting he was floating just as much if not more than Bertuzzi. People at the time just didn’t see it. That is my point.
by Section 312 on Oct 13, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Since this is actually a Shirokov thread … anyone else notice that the kid’s weight, as reported by the team over time, was 185 when he left Russia, 176 when he got here, and is now 195 on his way to the Moose?
No wonder he’s having a hard time with his game when his weight fluctuates like that. Get him a diet soda, stat!
That’s easy to explain. It’s a long flight from Russia to Canada and you don’t want to eat airline food so he dropped some weight. And since he got here Wellwood and Bernier have been forcing him to eat their portions of the food so they lose weight.
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point
but I sure am glad Gillis made such big improvements to the team.
So far Sam and Erhoff in and Soup & Ohlund out, Wow.
Does anyone actually pay attention to who big or small a guy is based on the team’s listed height/weight? We are all aware that teams lie about how big some guys are right?
by Section 312 on Oct 8, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Major Controversy
I look at it like this Shirokov may be or may not be a great player. It is way to early to know. Having said that based on his performance in the first 3 games he had to be sent to the Moose. There is not doubt that is right call.
Many many more Canucks could be named as candidates for the Moose from those terrible first three games but he is the one who signed a two contract so he had to produce to stay and he didn’t. So see ya Shirokov and all hail Tylor Glass. These things have way evening out. If Shirokov is the real deal he will back in no time.
I think Shirok will be back, but not till he drops some of his KHL habits – e.g. he goal-sucks too much – and replaces them with NHL ones. I can only presume that his instincts reflect what’s worked for him in the past and it takes a while to change gears that way.
Question: he brought his girlfriend over here with him. She was looking at universities (I guess she’s a student) in both BC and Manitoba. Did she settle on one in BC? If so, Shirok will be doubly motivated to get back to the big club. I still think he’s got the tools, just needs to learn how to use them here.
As for Mason Raymond … IIRC, I read that he was a really little guy, physically, till relatively late in life as these things go, when he suddenly and recently shot up several inches and turned into a rail. Now that he’s filling out and getting stronger – well, he looks stronger to me this year – he has less of a weakness (pardon the pun) in that regard and seems to still be improving nicely.
Fun to watch him pick fights, too.
best post on the thread...
Kudos to you casual. Its not the end of the world. He looks to have to much talent to be in the AHL long. Shirokov will be back, and after pounding on AHL level talent, he will come back confident. So, no problem there…
As to the continual Gillis grousing in some quarters, all i am saying is lets have a little perspective. The past always seems to get the benefit of rose coloured hindsight.
People seem to forget that the Burkes and Nonis’s had their chance and blew it. In many ways. All Mike Gillis has done is come in with a plan and implement it. How many times were we told of the mystical “final piece” and how “close” we were by both of them. Gillis has just been honest and stuck to it. The team showed him they were better than he stated at the beginning and he has started to fill some holes.
Yet some will always say that its just the talent he inherited.
He inherited a scouting staff that was always sub par and erratic, and put in his plan.
All that did was get two #1s that were universally judged in the drafts by GMs and those who know to be the “steals of the draft”.
When was the last time Burke had that distinction? The Twins. Look in the mirror Canucks fans, and tell me you hadn’t, in the bar or the living room, screamed “SHOOT” at the TV. The Twins are stars now, and had the promise of it when they were rookies. The players we have seen the last two years prove that Burke is not a total piker. Not saying that he is…he knows the game.
Its the rest with him.
Yes, they drafted Kesler, but does that give them a pass on the other goofs? Patrick White instead of David Perron?
How about Patrick Berglend or Claude Giroux? Wouldn’t you love to see them instead of Grabner?
Luc Bourdon (RIP) was a great pick, but again…there are always Burke’s fantastic pick of Nathan Smith the year after he got the Sedins.
Among the guys picked after Nathan in the first round were Brad Boyes, Steve Ott, Niklas Kronwall and Justin Williams.
Just a little perspective folks. The way Gillis and Co. run their team seems to be earning your spot.
That was never TOTALLY the case in either Nonis or Burke’s reigns.
Hell, how many cities has Brad May followed Burke around to? Nonis had his moments too, I am not saying they are bums….
But neither is Mike Gillis. The truth lays in that huge grey area in the middle. Right now, even at 1-3 to start the season, I am happier with this team than any since ’94.
vancitydan
Ironic
that you initially talk about the benefits of hindsight….
And then go on to compare how some of Burke and Nonis’ picks have so far turned out in comparison to those that Gillis is responsible for who have yet to even play.
Just as nobody could say back then (or even now) how those picks would turn out, nobody knows how Hodgson or Schroeder will so let’s not be comparing unhatched chickens to semi-hatched ones just yet.
As far as the rest of the “grousing” goes, they are just facts, Gillis inherited the bulk of the core of this team, and so far the biggest moves he’s made have turned out poorly, and Nonis and Burke’s moves look better and better as time goes on.
When Gillis actually makes a significant improvement to the team, I will recognize and give credit for it, until then he’s got some work to do just to get back to par.
Credit where credit’s due. As far as on-ice talent is concerned, Burke-Nonis did bring all the important pieces on this team. But I don’t see that as a basis to knock Gillis. You can’t blame him for inheriting a good team. Gillis so far has been successful at keeping things together despite a salary cap system that probably works against him at this point, so that’s some praise he deserves. What else he can do I agree has yet to be seen. I don’t, though, agree with your point that the biggest moves he’s made have turned out poorly. I still think Sundin was a good pick up. He wasn’t as good as the salary he was making, but he made the Canucks a better team. An overpaid player who helps your team is better than no player at all. The loss to Chicago was NOT his fault. The other big moves he’s made really have been the signings of the twins and Lu, which is a pretty big deal and he deserves kudos. Do Erhoff and Sammuelson count as big news? I don’t know, and whether they do or not, how they pan out, as you say, is a story that’s yet to be told.
by Beantown Canuck on Oct 8, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The sad thing is Yoata, is on this subject, you won’t.
It is amazing how a person that has profound insights and an obvious love of the game and team has a blind spot about Gillis you could drive a semi through.
I guess we all have our “things”.
I made a cogent statement, and you choose to deny and obfuscate. “Some” and “far”….come on bud, just address the questions instead of focussing on denying the statement. Thats debate 101 right?
I just don’t get it yoata…I read your posts and insights on other aspects of the team, and you aren’t an idiot…smart and well considered, Thats why I don’t get it…what is it? Perhaps Gillis owes you money?
Not one mention of all of Burke’s draft failings. Nathan Smith was just one. There are others. Hell, he drafted a good one in Umberger and pissed him away for almost nothing over 250,000 dollars.
Forgetting what everyone has tried to tell you, and that you just don’t get. Its not to get into the same argument, because that is just futile and adds little to the conversation…
He has changed the culture. he has gotten more out of the guys on the team, inherited or not. He opened the system to a far more offensive and progressive style. The Canucks are a better team under Gillis and AV than they ever were under Burke or Nonis. Because they are more of a T-E-A-M.
When is the last time you read a story in the paper about a “rift in the room” with the Canucks. Almost a monthly experience with the Canucks under both the previous regimes as well.
Or Coach V, another example of Gillis’s different imprint on the team.
He may have been a Nonis hire, but at least to me, I have seen his coaching style be forced open by the GM. Gillis should be thanked just for the fact he opened up the Trap style.
Its not like he has done nothing. Bernier is a good player, and he signed him for less, because like others he wants to buy into the team. Gillis did that, not Burke. Gillis signed Burrows to a deal that is STILL the envy of other GMs for being a good deal. 4 years at 2 mil for a first line guy? Thats what he is now…(and neither Burke or Nonis discovered him either…Heizinger did)
I just can’t picture Gillis offering to “drive him to the airport myself”. or anyone for that matter…
Anyhow, I am sure the response will be cogent and entertaining…keep the sticks down though…because just saying “when he does something I will give him credit” as an argument isn’t really germane.
He has done plenty. His interviews alone are more informative and sometimes entertaining than Burke’s more “blustery” approach.
Burke sure was funny though.
Nighty night…
vancitydan
Really?
Is it me that has the blind spot?
I think there’s an awful lot of hype about “Gillis’ team” that doesn’t belong to Gillis and to me it’s those who blindly accept that as truth who aren’t seeing things as they are.
As far as answering the question, I have repeatedly asked anyone to define in real terms what exactly Gillis has contributed to this team, actual improvements, not intangibles and hope for the future of draft picks, some of Nonis and Burke’s picks still have that, big deal.
And I never said Burke was perfect, or Nonis either, but both are far more responsible for bringing the core of this team to Vancouver, but all they seem to get is disrespect, again, that’s blinders for you.
And saying that Nonis wasn’t responsible for Burrows is pretty weak, who signed him? You and I don’t know who told Gillis to make his draft picks either, any more than we know who convinced Burke to take the twins, but they are the GM of record at the time and in my book that means they are ultimately responsible for those moves.
It’s telling to me that you can post such a long defense of Gillis and the best actual claim of a move he made you can include is Steve Bernier? A good player? T hat’s an opinion, but factually he is a very expensive 3rd liner who so far as a Canuck has gone backwards instead of forwards in terms of production. He took less because he deserved less.
Re-signing players at a discount? Nonis and Burke did that too, Naslund, the twins, etc took home-town cuts. Don’t get me wrong, getting the Burr deal done was a good thing, but how much more would he have got for 1 good year really? Still, good move, one of the very few so far, to me Nonis matching Kesler’s offer-sheet was more astute, but where’s the credit for him?
Too early to tell about Gillis’s draft choices. Hockey has always been a tough draft for any GM cuz they draft the kids so young (aot, say, the NFL). So we’ll see. The rest is pluses and minuses, but mostly pluses:
PLUS: His "big" acquisitions – to use Yoata’s lingo – have been either good and/or ephemeral. Sundin came and went with no lasting impact to the salary cap. Demitra will shortly do the same.
PLUS: The team is working harder; witness the fitness regimes. Those will pay off more as the grind of a long season wears on.
PLUS: He signs players cheap and to reasonable contract lengths. In the salary-cap era, this is huge. Burrows is, as VCD noted, a first liner for $2M x 4. The Sedins definitely gave a hometown discount. Luongo was salary cap gamesmanship, making him no more cap-expensive than many other goalies in the league and the one truly long-term contract Gillis has done, but for the one position where it’s needed, and even then it comes w/an escape clause. Compare and contrast to Ottawa/Heatley.
PLUS: The hometown discount and the happy free agents indicate that Vancouver is, as Gillis stated, becoming a place that players want to come to and that will pay off in the future.
MINUS: We are, as we speak, over the cap and getting away with it only cuz of LTIR. Dunno if Gillis plans to work the injury reserve so hard all year long, or if we’ll have to deal away a top 4 D-man to solve the problem. If it’s a D-man, it probably means Bieksa, which would essentially complete a Bieksa-for-Ehrhoff swap. Hmm. Hope I’m wrong, but it’s hard to see where else the cap can be reduced by enough without an almost complete overhaul of the forward lines. Either that, or hang in there somehow till another team decides they need a vet fw as their missing piece, then trade Demitra for picks.
Final comment: is it that Vancouver has drafted less well over the years aot, say, Detroit … or is it that our player development in the lower leagues simply isn’t working as well as it should? If, for ex, Grabner had been drafted by the Wings or the Blues, might he be a solid NHL’er already? Not sure, but I do have to wonder.
PLUS: His “big” acquisitions – to use Yoata’s lingo – have been either good and/or ephemeral. Sundin came and went with no lasting impact to the salary cap. Demitra will shortly do the same.
“Not hurting too much” = good? Did they live up to expectations on the ice or not? Were they they answer they were supposed to be or not?
PLUS: The team is working harder; witness the fitness regimes. Those will pay off more as the grind of a long season wears on.
meh, I’ll go with how they treated Hodgson on this one, give me results not excuses.
PLUS: He signs players cheap and to reasonable contract lengths. In the salary-cap era, this is huge. Burrows is, as VCD noted, a first liner for $2M x 4. The Sedins definitely gave a hometown discount. Luongo was salary cap gamesmanship, making him no more cap-expensive than many other goalies in the league and the one truly long-term contract Gillis has done, but for the one position where it’s needed, and even then it comes w/an escape clause. Compare and contrast to Ottawa/Heatley.
Burr’s deal was good, Sedins fair, Nonis got them for a bigger bargain. Lu’s deal is low in terms of cap but a huge risk considering his age and lack of playoff successs.
MINUS: We are, as we speak, over the cap and getting away with it only cuz of LTIR. Dunno if Gillis plans to work the injury reserve so hard all year long, or if we’ll have to deal away a top 4 D-man to solve the problem. If it’s a D-man, it probably means Bieksa, which would essentially complete a Bieksa-for-Ehrhoff swap. Hmm. Hope I’m wrong, but it’s hard to see where else the cap can be reduced by enough without an almost complete overhaul of the forward lines. Either that, or hang in there somehow till another team decides they need a vet fw as their missing piece, then trade Demitra for picks.
To me perhaps the biggest minus so far is opportunity cost, signing they guys he did cost them the ability to add bonafide difference makers to the lineup, he tied his own hands and now has basically given the Burke/Nonis group a vote of confidence for the team they built that he disrespected his first day on the job.
Call Burke a blowhard but I don’t think he’s ever done anything that classless.
Sundin was a fair shot at getting the best rental available. Demitra produced at his usual clip and was signed at a time when we really needed another vet top 6 fw. Nonis did NOT get those other players as a “bigger bargain” cuz they were at earlier stages of their careers; by your logic we should ditch all players after their entry-levels expire and I disagree w/that.
Burke/Nonis do not deserve to be pilloried, but neither did they have enough “finish” to their team-building in their times here, akin to a skilled player who can’t quite finish around the net. Close, and exciting, but we need to take that last step. Gillis is, so far, looking good at it, but it’ll be a few years till we know for sure.
And you have to get over Cody. He’ll be back.
Sundin was a fair shot at getting the best rental available.
Sundin was a fail as a high profile acquisition, big time, he was a disappointment, why is that so hard to admit, he wasn’t worth half what he got let alone what he was offered. I’ll say again, only Soup’s own apathy kept Gillis from completely fcuking this franchise over with that one contract.
Demitra produced at his usual clip and was signed at a time when we really needed another vet top 6 fw.
Again, was Demitra a disappointment or not? We need a top 6 forward right now!
Nonis did NOT get those other players as a "bigger bargain" cuz they were at earlier stages of their careers; by your logic we should ditch all players after their entry-levels expire and I disagree w/that.
WTF? How do you figure that “logic” ???
Nonis damn well did get the twins at a bargain, $3.5M for 75 pt players???
Burke/Nonis do not deserve to be pilloried, but neither did they have enough "finish" to their team-building in their times here, akin to a skilled player who can’t quite finish around the net. Close, and exciting, but we need to take that last step. Gillis is, so far, looking good at it, but it’ll be a few years till we know for sure.
Again, everyone seems to take their hopes for this team and somehow apply that to what Gillis has actually accomplished. How can we know what his “finish” is like after 1 year and a 2nd round knockout (the same level Nonis got to).
We’ll see how long Gillis lasts if his top 6 D are out for over 200 man games in a season, THAT’S why Nonis’ tenure was cut short, not for his lack of “finish”.
And you have to get over Cody. He’ll be back.
I hope so but I wouldn’t bet money on it at this point, he surely has been soured now on both Gillis and AV and their mistrust in his claim of injury despite the fact he has now been diagnosed with a herniated disc and ordered off the ice for a month.
Interesting dialogue
Yoata thanks for jumping in there and taking the unpopular stand.
To be honest right now I am pro Gilis. But and this a big but the whole house cards rests on Loungo. In my mind he is the big question mark.
If he is the chosen one and takes us to the promised land lets say a Stanley Cup final series – not to set the bar too high – then I would suggest the Gillis has done a good job. However if Gillis has guessed on wrong on Lou the walls will come tumbling down on this management team including Mr Gillis and AV.
The Hodgson story took in interesting turn today. You could see that he was hurt in training camp. Hell he was even talking about it. Gillis needs to take hard look at the Canuck medical staff. They really dropped the ball. Hopefully the damage is not permanent – backs can be tricky. I am sure Cody would have been put on the IR and given a chance later in the season had the right medical info been handed to the decision makers. This is a pretty major screw up on their part.
Update
Shirokov picked up a goal and an assist, and was a plus 2 tonight for the Moose.
I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much.
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